I Have a Dumb Question ...

[Ga_Gamecock]

Why did F McGuire leave? What happened to the bball program at this time? this was a good bit before my time and i have heard how solid our program was back in the 60s/70s but when did the decline occur? how good were we before we jumped the shark?

[Snake]

The game (from what I have heard) passed him by and more and more teams were playing a more up tempo style and Coach Mcguire never adjusted his coaching style.

More and more teams were playing above the rim and driving to the basket and we wanted to set up for the jump shot........and play Princeton style Basketball

I don't think its a dumb question........I asked my Dad the same question

[Cocklover]

yes, definitely, the time had passed him by, i remember him leaving and it really was a sad time, nothing like replacing him with bill foster, HAHA!!

[Ga_Gamecock]

wow. for some reason i thought we ran him off. or maybe the acc departure was a reason. i had no idea he lost his edge.

FWIW, i used to love watching prnceton in the tourney in Jr High and HS ... good stuff

[Cocky2001]

We left the ACC. That is what happened to Frank. As long as we were in that conference, we had the pull to get the recruits that we needed for Frank's kind of ball to be successful. We left it, and we lost that appeal. The corridor that had once funneled street savy kids from New York to the court in Columbia was destroyed. It takes many things coming together for a coach to be 'successful', and one of the main things, recruits, was lost forever in that one move.

Don't get me wrong, I like being in the SEC, but you cannot deny the coincidences that exist between our leaving the ACC and the downward spiral of our basketball program.

FWIW, many are still not happy about the way that Frank "left". There are those that know much more about this since I was a little on the young side at the time, but, James Holderman...our d!ckheaded president at the time...didn't honor the man properly on his way out. Of course, this was just one of many things that James Holderman didn't do right while being our "president". That one person set us back more than 30 years...easy...it wouldn't be a stretch to say 50. Anyway, suffice it to say that we'd all be better off if he had never stepped foot on campus.

[Pollo Del Mar]

As someone else who is interested but it was before my time ...

Why was there and still is so much acrimony regarding his departure?

[sixthfloorsnowden]

Well what you've got to understand is McGuire was the main reason we left the ACC. I can't remember the kids name for the life of me since I haven't thought about it recently, but the b-ball team got this kid to the university and he met all the USC standards but fell short on the ACC guidelines.

Dietzel and football program, along with McGuire, had been having problems with the ACC for years and finally everything came to a boiling point and McGuire left.

As far as his retirement, the University basically showed him the door saying he couldn't compete. But, you have to remember that USC was an independent school making it damn near impossible to get into the NCAA or even NIT tournament. They didn't join the Metro until 2 years after McGuire retired.

[KCSuge]

We left the ACC. That is what happened to Frank. As long as we were in that conference, we had the pull to get the recruits that we needed for Frank's kind of ball to be successful. We left it, and we lost that appeal. The corridor that had once funneled street savy kids from New York to the court in Columbia was destroyed. It takes many things coming together for a coach to be 'successful', and one of the main things, recruits, was lost forever in that one move.

Don't get me wrong, I like being in the SEC, but you cannot deny the coincidences that exist between our leaving the ACC and the downward spiral of our basketball program.

FWIW, many are still not happy about the way that Frank "left". There are those that know much more about this since I was a little on the young side at the time, but, James Holderman...our d!ckheaded president at the time...didn't honor the man properly on his way out. Of course, this was just one of many things that James Holderman didn't do right while being our "president". That one person set us back more than 30 years...easy...it wouldn't be a stretch to say 50. Anyway, suffice it to say that we'd all be better off if he had never stepped foot on campus.

Our football team started the downward spiral around that time. The Carolina-clemson series was pretty even up until that time. After we left the ACC, clemson started beating us. Worst mistake Carolina sports ever made was leaving the ACC.

[Ga_Gamecock]

Well what you've got to understand is McGuire was the main reason we left the ACC. I can't remember the kids name for the life of me since I haven't thought about it recently, but the b-ball team got this kid to the university and he met all the USC standards but fell short on the ACC guidelines.

Dietzel and football program, along with McGuire, had been having problems with the ACC for years and finally everything came to a boiling point and McGuire left.

As far as his retirement, the University basically showed him the door saying he couldn't compete. But, you have to remember that USC was an independent school making it damn near impossible to get into the NCAA or even NIT tournament. They didn't join the Metro until 2 years after McGuire retired.


I thought the ACC's denial of Freddie Solomon (who was a FB recruit,not BBall) to USC was a big factor in us laeving the conf ...

fact or fiction?

is this just one example?

[wb12]

I remember all the students camped out to protest him getting pushed out. Fun but very sad times. Hell of a coach.

[Cockhornleghorn]

The game didn't pass Frank by, we left the ACC and that made it very difficult to recruit. Being an independent was very bad for the state of our basketball program.

[superstar90]

The best thing to ever happen to USC? Leaving the ACC because in 92 we joined the best conference in the country, the SEC. Did it cause us a lot of problems along the way? Probably, but it's just like people justifying giving lots more money to the school now. Sure it may be painful at first, and we may not see the results for a while. But in the end it will work out for the best.

About Frank. I don't know, but leaving the ACC shouldn't be an excuse. When we left that means he still should have had 3-4 years with "ACC quality players" on the roster, but we didn't win. Plus since the ACC was so hard, wouldn't it be easier to win more games with a lesser schedule? I would lean toward the style of the game changing w/o Frank changing. Dean Smith made a change in his style, so maybe Frank just wanted to do things his way. SOS I believe realizes now that his style at UF must be tweaked to win now. All coaches have to do it if they stay in the game long enough.

[Kendalls Daddy]

Leaving the ACC is not the reason we have experienced "downward spirals" in basketball and football....

First, regarding football: we won 1 ACC Championship...Out side of being undefeated in the ACC in 1969, we had a losing nonconference schedule that year and lost the Peach Bowl...We have losing records vs every ACC member except Va Tech, including Duke...Our best years in the history of our Football team came after the ACC:84,87,88,2000, and 2001..Not to mention Rogers winning the Heisman and a few other 8-wins seasons...One reason we were even with Clemson up until that point is that the first 55 or so games were all here in Columbia and finally Clemson caught on and ended Big Thursday...

As for basketball, we have been really good for about 6-8 years under McGuire...Before he got here, not 1 ACC championship and a mediocre record at best...He had a losing season in his 1st year, 2 average seasons and then hit dominance for about 6 yrs before fading back down...In his span I believe he won 1 ACC title(correct me if I'm wrong)Foster did a pretty good job here once we joined the Metro Conference which was a great Conference: USC, Fla St, Memphis, Cincy, Tulane, and Louisville just to name a few...Felton would have been great, but had an attitude towards the admin and fans and was forced out...Then came Newton which was a deplorable hire...Fogler won an SEC and Odom won 2 NITs here...Not lights out, but not bottom of the barrell either...

The problem is not leaving the ACC, its the USC admin taking the route of hiring coaches who have already peaked : Holtz, Dietzel, Odom, Foster, McGuire, Spurrier, etc...The younger coaches we took chances on: Morrison, Scott, Felton, and Woods...I would say 2 of the 4 were successful while Woods left with a winning record, and Scott was a bust...Its time the Hyman step up and hire a young coach in basketball and prove to those that believe leaving the ACC was not the problem with this team, its hiring a short term fix to solve a long term issue...

(Or, maybe the problem could be due to us leaving the Southern Conference-we were dominant in that conference)

[Ga_Gamecock]

Well at least coach Knight is going to come in and lead us back to the promised land LOL

[Kendalls Daddy]

Well at least coach Knight is going to come in and lead us back to the promised land LOL
yeah....I can't wait...Should be an exciting era for us...

[willy]

Why did F McGuire leave? What happened to the bball program at this time? this was a good bit before my time and i have heard how solid our program was back in the 60s/70s but when did the decline occur? how good were we before we jumped the shark?



Frank was dumped because he had reached the mandatory retirement age. He was still a very capable Coach but was treated like trash, thus causing our alumni to revolt.

[Skybo]

Didn't Frank get mad because Carlin was made AD over him ? I was around
but OLD age makes it hard to recall everthing. Best I can remember I think Frank took it as a insult !!:thumbs:

[usc90grad]

There is no such thing as a dumb question.....only dumb answers.

:lol:

[superstar90]

I try to contribute a dumb answer at least once a day! I believe Diehard would agree with that! :)

[brat]

There were several reasons why we left the ACC.

A double standard from the ACC toward USC than any other school was a key element of friction.

If a student-athlete's eligibility came into question, he had to stop playing until it was determined if he really was eligible to play or not. Sounds reasonable until you realize that this was for USC only, while any other ACC school could allow their kids to keep playing unless it was later determined something was wrong. This stemmed from a situation that was created by certain ACC'ers themselves which is mentioned in the next papragraph.

Right before Frank's death some ACC officials met with him and told him that they had plotted to keep out of the league what was Frank's biggest recruit ever (Mike Grosso..some considered the second highest rated HS kid his senior year behind one Lew Alcindor aka Kareem Abdul Jabbar). UNC and Duke, among many others, wanted this kid, too, but he snubbed them in favor of us.

He fell 10 points shy of his SAT to be eligible to play ball his Frosh year (they couldn't play varsity sports then, anyway). He enrolled at USC and was working to get his grades up to be able to play the following year. His uncle ran and owned a small bar in Baltimore, I think, and he (the uncle) was the only employee. He paid for tuition for his nephew and wrote it on a check that had the bar name on it instead of a check in his personal name. The ACC determined that was a violation and refused to ever let him play at USC. He transferred to Cincinnati, I believe, blew out his knee and never had the career most thought he would.

UNC was found to have been allowing, for years, two kids each year, that did not meet standards to enroll at that school and play football. Paul Dietzel, who had been trying to slightly lower the bar to compete with the SEC schools and other conferences for local kids, found out about it and asked the same thing be allowed at USC. His request was denied. When he protested about UNC doing it, they stopped, but was never penalized for their own violations of ACC law.

USC was the league doormat for ages in most sports, basketball being the king sport in the ACC, made that all the more pleasing to the Tobacco Roaders. When Frank built a team that started beating them, it inflamed their hatred of him and us.

Some say that leaving the ACC was the worst thing we ever did. If you were alive back then and old enough to have to remember those days, you would disagree vehemently. Think of the rivalry and hatred most feel toward Clempson. Multiply that by four or five times and you would be close to the hatred the ACC had for us and we for them, basically all because we simply wanted equal treatment and for the ACC not to be ruled by, UNC and Duke. The famous fight with Maryland? I was actually there, because as a kid I was at almost every home game. It's cause was due to Maryland players throwing elbows all game long and Lefty did nothing about his kids doing it. With 5 minutes left in the game, we were winning by about 25 points or so and a Maryland player took a cheap shot at Rick Adylett. Enough was enough and our kids let them have it. After that point and the very unflattering Sports Illustrated issue on John Roche and the team, it was impossible to stay in the league. Each time our kids traveled, let alone fans, they were cursed with extreme profanity, trash thrown at them, heated coins, gum tossed in their hair, threats were made and cruel taunts were made about Frankie McGuire, Frank's boy.

Even back then many, many Clempson fans pulled for USC in basketball because, they too hated the ACC teams. In fact, Clempson had agreed to pull out with USC to try to force the ACC to change. USC wanted to do a joint withdrawal, at the same press conference, but Clempson asked us to do it in the morning and they would follow in the afternoon. The story is that word got out to ACC people about what was about to happen and they met with Clempson and told them to stay in the ACC or they would be turned into the NCAA for another series of football recruiting violations. Stay and everything would be forgotten. Whatever the cause, they did not keep their word to us and we left the ACC alone. I vividly remember that day and the USC fans were joyous, such was the hatred of the ACC. It was like a heavy weight had been lifted from us. We were tired of being the red headed step child. To this day, I despise the ACC and am angry that we ever play any of them, in any sport, unless it is in a bowl game or NCAA's where we have no choice, and I even include Clempson in that group. That conference could rot for all I care. If Clempson had followed through, I believe our rivalry would not be nearly as bitter as it is today.

Few recall that a few years after we left the ACC and before GT joined (thus, still 7 original schools left, we approached the ACC to rejoin as the SAT standards had been dropped to a level similar to what we had wanted and we also felt some of the raw emotions had subsided by then. The ACC
agreed to let us back in if we did the following:

Pay a fee to be readmitted (nothing wrong with that)

Not be eligible to play for any ACC title for at least 3 years (no reason for that other than spite)

We had to repay the ACC all the money they would have gotten from us for gates, TV appearances, etc, from the moment we left the conference, just as if we had never left and even though they did nothing to earn that money. That probably would have added a couple million to pay out, at least. (blackmail)

We had to offer a public apology to the ACC for ever leaving and admit we were wrong in doing so (humiliation)

All of that was in The State paper and I remember it well, too.

That was proof that the ACC would still treat us like garbage.

So, that settles that and anyone who misses the ACC either has a bad memory, forgives easier than Mother Theresa, or wasn't alive in those days. The best day, despite the difficulty of competition, USC ever had in sports was the day we joined the SEC for they treat us as full equals. The second best day was the day we left the ACC.

As for Frank's last years? Well, he still had fine players still on the roster, at first, after we left the ACC (and he was dead set against it)..Mike Dunleavy, Kevin Joyce, Brian Winters, Alex English, etc. and we did alright for the first few years, but as those groups graduated, it was more and more difficult to recruit as an independent and the records began to suffer. Some people you do not force out and put to pasture, like Joe Paterno at Penn State and Frank was that for us at USC. He would not have coached much longer and he should have gone out in style, but that was not the case. Sad. The game had not passed Frank by, but he had not been able to get nearly the talent he once had.

[The Yancey]

I can not add a single word to what Brat wrote. I was part of that group as well. I would see Bobby Cremins several times each week and I looked up to him for more than the height difference. I still do.

For those of you who like to bite the pillow for Hymen Brat's discourse on the tarholes should give you pause.

[reddot8481]

Yancey did you just bring up he who shall not be named????? Mods I call for banishment.... or at least a stern talking to.

[NastyNash]

We need to get the Frank M. for this century of bball.

[TheMule]

Brat, that's one of the best posts ever on this board. My blood boils every time I think about the ACC a-holes and the Clempson betrayal. It's hard for those who didn't live through that era to imagine the white hot hate that was abundant. It's probably a good thing we got out of the ACC for the security of our players.
As for playing ACC teams, I don't mind as long as we beat the everlovin cold hell out of them!!!

[Slacker USC]

There were several reasons why we left the ACC.

A double standard from the ACC toward USC than any other school was a key element of friction.

If a student-athlete's eligibility came into question, he had to stop playing until it was determined if he really was eligible to play or not. Sounds reasonable until you realize that this was for USC only, while any other ACC school could allow their kids to keep playing unless it was later determined something was wrong. This stemmed from a situation that was created by certain ACC'ers themselves which is mentioned in the next papragraph.

Right before Frank's death some ACC officials met with him and told him that they had plotted to keep out of the league what was Frank's biggest recruit ever (Mike Grosso..some considered the second highest rated HS kid his senior year behind one Lew Alcindor aka Kareem Abdul Jabbar). UNC and Duke, among many others, wanted this kid, too, but he snubbed them in favor of us.

He fell 10 points shy of his SAT to be eligible to play ball his Frosh year (they couldn't play varsity sports then, anyway). He enrolled at USC and was working to get his grades up to be able to play the following year. His uncle ran and owned a small bar in Baltimore, I think, and he (the uncle) was the only employee. He paid for tuition for his nephew and wrote it on a check that had the bar name on it instead of a check in his personal name. The ACC determined that was a violation and refused to ever let him play at USC. He transferred to Cincinnati, I believe, blew out his knee and never had the career most thought he would.

UNC was found to have been allowing, for years, two kids each year, that did not meet standards to enroll at that school and play football. Paul Dietzel, who had been trying to slightly lower the bar to compete with the SEC schools and other conferences for local kids, found out about it and asked the same thing be allowed at USC. His request was denied. When he protested about UNC doing it, they stopped, but was never penalized for their own violations of ACC law.

USC was the league doormat for ages in most sports, basketball being the king sport in the ACC, made that all the more pleasing to the Tobacco Roaders. When Frank built a team that started beating them, it inflamed their hatred of him and us.

Some say that leaving the ACC was the worst thing we ever did. If you were alive back then and old enough to have to remember those days, you would disagree vehemently. Think of the rivalry and hatred most feel toward Clempson. Multiply that by four or five times and you would be close to the hatred the ACC had for us and we for them, basically all because we simply wanted equal treatment and for the ACC not to be ruled by, UNC and Duke. The famous fight with Maryland? I was actually there, because as a kid I was at almost every home game. It's cause was due to Maryland players throwing elbows all game long and Lefty did nothing about his kids doing it. With 5 minutes left in the game, we were winning by about 25 points or so and a Maryland player took a cheap shot at Rick Adylett. Enough was enough and our kids let them have it. After that point and the very unflattering Sports Illustrated issue on John Roche and the team, it was impossible to stay in the league. Each time our kids traveled, let alone fans, they were cursed with extreme profanity, trash thrown at them, heated coins, gum tossed in their hair, threats were made and cruel taunts were made about Frankie McGuire, Frank's boy.

Even back then many, many Clempson fans pulled for USC in basketball because, they too hated the ACC teams. In fact, Clempson had agreed to pull out with USC to try to force the ACC to change. USC wanted to do a joint withdrawal, at the same press conference, but Clempson asked us to do it in the morning and they would follow in the afternoon. The story is that word got out to ACC people about what was about to happen and they met with Clempson and told them to stay in the ACC or they would be turned into the NCAA for another series of football recruiting violations. Stay and everything would be forgotten. Whatever the cause, they did not keep their word to us and we left the ACC alone. I vividly remember that day and the USC fans were joyous, such was the hatred of the ACC. It was like a heavy weight had been lifted from us. We were tired of being the red headed step child. To this day, I despise the ACC and am angry that we ever play any of them, in any sport, unless it is in a bowl game or NCAA's where we have no choice, and I even include Clempson in that group. That conference could rot for all I care. If Clempson had followed through, I believe our rivalry would not be nearly as bitter as it is today.

Few recall that a few years after we left the ACC and before GT joined (thus, still 7 original schools left, we approached the ACC to rejoin as the SAT standards had been dropped to a level similar to what we had wanted and we also felt some of the raw emotions had subsided by then. The ACC
agreed to let us back in if we did the following:

Pay a fee to be readmitted (nothing wrong with that)

Not be eligible to play for any ACC title for at least 3 years (no reason for that other than spite)

We had to repay the ACC all the money they would have gotten from us for gates, TV appearances, etc, from the moment we left the conference, just as if we had never left and even though they did nothing to earn that money. That probably would have added a couple million to pay out, at least. (blackmail)

We had to offer a public apology to the ACC for ever leaving and admit we were wrong in doing so (humiliation)

All of that was in The State paper and I remember it well, too.

That was proof that the ACC would still treat us like garbage.

So, that settles that and anyone who misses the ACC either has a bad memory, forgives easier than Mother Theresa, or wasn't alive in those days. The best day, despite the difficulty of competition, USC ever had in sports was the day we joined the SEC for they treat us as full equals. The second best day was the day we left the ACC.

As for Frank's last years? Well, he still had fine players still on the roster, at first, after we left the ACC (and he was dead set against it)..Mike Dunleavy, Kevin Joyce, Brian Winters, Alex English, etc. and we did alright for the first few years, but as those groups graduated, it was more and more difficult to recruit as an independent and the records began to suffer. Some people you do not force out and put to pasture, like Joe Paterno at Penn State and Frank was that for us at USC. He would not have coached much longer and he should have gone out in style, but that was not the case. Sad. The game had not passed Frank by, but he had not been able to get nearly the talent he once had.

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. A lot of us younger folks weren't around for that era, and though I'd heard bits and pieces, it's nice to see it all in one place, from someone who was there.

[Cocky2001]

I didn't want to call him out, but I was hoping that Brat would post in this thread. I knew that he knew far more about the situation that did I. Great job Brat...pts sent!

[Ga_Gamecock]

There is no such thing as a dumb question.....only dumb answers.

:lol:


I thought that there were no stupid question, just stupid people that aSK QUESTIONS

[Cockycorleone']

Get 'em Brat!For those that truly believe that leaving The ACC was a huge mistake please read Brat's entire Post thoroughly.

Let's also not forget how our Fans were denied to see the Celebration of our ACC Championship after we defeated UNC in the ACC Tourney during the '70-71 Season.The Camera immediately went away from I believe Owens and Joyce at the conclusion of the Game.Granted,those Events transpired before my time,but I learned of those Events from very reliable Sources.

[Ga_Gamecock]

Get 'em Brat!For those that truly believe that leaving The ACC was a huge mistake please read Brat's entire Post thoroughly.

Let's also not forget how our Fans were denied to see the Celebration of our ACC Championship after we defeated UNC in the ACC Tourney during the '70-71 Season.The Camera immediately went away from I believe Owens and Joyce at the conclusion of the Game.Granted,those Events transpired before my time,but I learned of those Events from very reliable Sources.

plz elaborate

[Stillwearingmyjoehat]

I've read Brat's post and he covers all the bases. ANYONE who wishes for a return to the ACC or regrets leaving is completely in the dark as to the history between Carolina and those lying A-holes on Tobacco Road.

As to Frank McGuire retiring I won't add much except two words: Sol Blatt. Blatt hated McGuire and did everything he could as Speaker of the S.C. House to eliminate McGuire's influence over Carolina athletics.

Ever wonder why while McGuire was here there were TWO openings for Athletic Director and both times the job went to football coaches? (Ostensibly as a lure to get them to come to Columbia.) Why was Coach never allowed to bring his energy, vision and experience to building Carolina's athletic promise? Just look across the corner of Pendleton and Sumter and you'll get all your answers.

[COCKDIESEL]

There are no dumb questions....................


























Just Dumb people asking them.:grin:

[UgSaCmecocks]

wow. for some reason i thought we ran him off. or maybe the acc departure was a reason. i had no idea he lost his edge.

FWIW, i used to love watching prnceton in the tourney in Jr High and HS ... good stuff

it was for both reasons for our decline...leaving ACC and a aging coach.

Problem was we thought we could win championships outside the ACC only it became our demise. Recruiting suffered, the game was changing and thus we entered the middle 70's as a has been. Struggled ever since! I remember many former players recented the letting FM go/fire. Oh well can't change the past but it sure does come back to haunt

[TheMule]

plz elaborate

When State upset us for the 1970 tournament (I still say Cremmins was fouled but that's for another day), CD Chesney showed their celebration, cutting down the nets, trophy celebration, and I swear on my mother's grave they even showed the guys sweeping the gym floor. When we beat UNC-CH, the telecast was immediately cut off. I guess if we had been up by 20 with a minute to go, they would have ended it with a minute to go. Jim Thacker and Billy Packer were so far up UNC-CH's azz that they could have looked out Dean Smith's mouth to call the game.
There were some other great threads concerning our ACC years in fowl shots last year. I'm not sure if they're still on the board or if they've been deleted or archived.

[Snake]

Thanks for the post Brat.........That was great info for some of us that were not around during that time

Thank you again!!

[Stillwearingmyjoehat]

I was 10 years old when Carolina left the ACC. I was a freshman when Coach retired. I know what went down in Coach's last years but I always wanted to know the truth about our giving up on the ACC.

If anyone is on Campus, in Columbia or can get there, do what I did a long time ago. One slow, Sunday afternoon in the Spring it was raining cats and dogs and I didn't want to sit in Maxcy and stare at the wall all day. So, I walked over to Thomas-Cooper and went down to the ground level into the Newspaper/Archive room and started reading. All the old STATEs, GAMECOCKS, EVENING POSTs, COURIERs, GREENVILLE NEWS, RECORDS and just about every other South Carolina daily are down there on microfilm.

I started reading all the old sports pages and editorial pages from around the middle of 1968 until midnight when th T-C closed. After that I got a pretty good idea of just about everything that went down. (Herman Helms was in rare form expressing his indignation at the very idea of USC leaving the ACC. I can't remember if Dan Foster was a columnist back then but I do remember reading some choice stuff out of Greenville. This was long before Ken Burger but James Beck was a real pinhead about it all also.)

So, this forum is a good place to start but if you're REALLY interested in what happened (and it really is a great story), then make the time. It's all there and you don't even have to ask for permission to read it.

[brat]

Glad to help. It is like, I suppose, listening to your parents or grandparents talking about the Depression or WWII. It is very difficult to explain things to get the entire gist or impact of those times for those not yet born.

One other thing I felt interesting is that whenever USC brought up a motion or suggestion to the ACC that might improve things or to lead them down another path to consider how things were presently being done, almost without exception the vote was 0-7 against us.

Some may say (ACC'ers) that was because we brought up bad ideas and motions, but to me, the chances of that always happening is more evidence of collusion and or strong arm tactics by the Tobacco Road schools. How? Well, is was next to impossible to get anything passed with a virtual block vote of the NC schools (4 of 8 teams). When schools like Maryland or Virginia (we already know Clempson wasn't treated too much better than us, except they seldom rocked the boat, their "saving grace" refused to go against those same schools, they could easily have been neutered just like we were by those same NC schools. They either could go along with the program or leave, like us, so they took the safe way out. I guess that wasn't a shock in that the two SC schools were more football oriented anyway, so why change things?

So, those spineless schools stayed and only the recent expansion of the league has watered down the death grip UNC and Duke have held on the ACC since the beginning. Heck, it only took an extra 35 years or so.

We were the squeaking wheel, so to speak. We did not get the grease, we got a hatchet right between the eyes. Still, with all the suffering we had since then (especially the pre SEC days), it was worth it, because we would still be the villain of the ACC to those wine and cheese people.

SC, the state, has a history of not taking crap from anyone. We did the right thing, the only thing. The funny thing is, to this day (admit it or not) I think it safe to say most of the Clempsonites would commit mayhem to get into the SEC and we should always remember the backstabbing they gave us and forever fight against that travesty should expansion talk ever come up. If the school President, BOT, or AD, does not stand against such a move, they should be dragged from their offices and tarred and feathered on the spot...if they are lucky.

We should never play the ACC or do anything, however small, to benefit them until they offer us a public apology for their treatment of us back in the day and admit they were the real cause of the strife.

[Stillwearingmyjoehat]

One of the telling things is that after we left the ACC the basketball programs dropped us like a hot potato with the obvious exception of Klempsun. Football, though, was so ACC heavy that as late as 1987 we were claiming a faux ACC Championship with a 4-0 conference record.

[greenvillespur]

Excellent post Brat, I too had always heard bits and peices of our leaving the ACC and Clempsun's betrayal, but always second hand or " someone once told me...". Good to hear a complete account from someone who has first-hand knowledge. Pts sent.

Go Gamecocks!!!

[CockRoche]

I think Brat's post should be permanently stickied in a prominent place on Cockytalk because it affects our entire athletic program. About Frank McGuire, I was in Healthsouth for rehab due to a motorcycle accident and he was in there at the same time due to a stroke, I believe. I actually got to talk to him(even though he couldn't really speak much) several times while I was in there. What I wanted to say is, his room was decorated wall to wal with Gamecock stuff, so he still had a lot of love for USC.