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-   -   Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV (http://www.cockytalk.com/showthread.php?t=206908)

Travelin 05-30-2014 07:28 PM

Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
DESTIN, Fla. -- The Southeastern Conference sent a strong message to the NCAA on Friday: provide the Power Five some autonomy or they'll form their own division.
SEC Commissioner Mike Slive said if the Power Five conferences -- which also include the Atlantic Coast Conference, the Big 12, the Power Ten and the Pac-12 -- don't get the flexibility needed to create their own bylaws, the next step would be to move to "Division IV."
"It's not something we want to do," Slive said on the final day of the SEC meetings. "We want to the ability to have autonomy in areas that has a nexus to the well-being of student athletes. I am somewhat optimistic it will pass, but if it doesn't, our league would certainly want to move to a Division IV. My colleagues, I can't speak for anybody else, but I'd be surprised if they didn't feel the same way."
http://espn.go.com/photo/2011/0926/n...mikests_65.jpg We hope everyone realizes we are moving into a new era and (Division IV) is the way to retain your collegiate model. It would be a disappointment and in my view a mistake not to adapt the model. This is a historic moment. If we don't seize the moment, we'll make a mistake.
” -- SEC commissioner Mike Slive
Moving to Division IV would keep the Power Five under the NCAA umbrella while granting college football's biggest money makers the kind of power to better take care of student-athletes. The SEC, for example, would like to pay full cost of college attendance, provide long-term medical coverage and offer incentives to kids who return to school and complete degrees.


University of Florida President Bernie Machen wasn't nearly as confident about staying in Division I.
"We're in a squeeze here," Machen said. "There are now six lawsuits that name our conference in them that specifically have to do with the whole cost of attendance and stuff like that. We would like to make changes, but we can't because the NCAA doesn't allow us to. We're really caught between a rock and a hard play. We desperately would like some flexibility."
The SEC wants the NCAA steering committee to adopt its proposal for the voting threshold, which would allow the Big Five to pass legislation with more ease. The NCAA board of directors will vote on the steering committee's proposal in August.
Currently, the NCAA requires two-thirds vote of the 65 schools and 15 student representatives as well as four out of five conferences.
"What we fear is that nothing will change because the threshold is so high," Machen said. "We're asking them to lower the threshold, which we propose is 60 percent and three conferences. With three conferences out of five and 60 percent of the 65 and 15, you can make those kinds of changes."


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http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ovide-autonomy


http://fansided.com/2014/05/30/sec-f...ion-iv/#!SCO7l


http://www.sacbee.com/2014/05/30/644...l-move-to.html

Gamecocks1137 05-30-2014 08:36 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Wow, nice move Slive.

SC Sandlapper 05-30-2014 08:57 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
The power conference flexes its muscle.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-30-2014 09:02 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
The Power Conferences can't do anything this is all talk the NCAA has all the power.

Gamecocks1137 05-30-2014 09:04 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4170747)
The Power Conferences can't do anything this is all talk the NCAA has all the power.

Nope, the power conferences make all the money, money is power. At least in this world it is.

JaxcockFL 05-30-2014 09:15 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4170747)
The Power Conferences can't do anything this is all talk the NCAA has all the power.

They can leave, which is something that the rest of the NCAA does not want..due to loss of money from the power 4+ACC.

The lawsuits are forcing this along.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-30-2014 09:42 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaxcockFL (Post 4170771)
They can leave, which is something that the rest of the NCAA does not want..due to loss of money from the power 4+ACC.

The lawsuits are forcing this along.

Quote:

The National Collegiate Athletic Association (“NCAA”) is an unincorporated organization that governs more than 1200 colleges, universities, athletic conferences, and sports organizations, while managing 360,000 student-athletes and eighty-eight championship events in three divisions.[4] The NCAA institutes a “principle of amateurism” in that student-athletes are amateurs and their participation should be primarily motivated by participation in their intercollegiate sport.[5] It further vows to protect student-athletes from professional and commercial enterprises,[6] and look after the best interests, education, and athletic participation of student-athletes.[7]

Because the NCAA avails itself to these principles, the Internal Revenue Code (“IRC”) recognizes it as a tax-exempt organization.[8] The NCAA and private universities rely on an exempt status under “501(c)(3), which provides exemption for charitable organizations such as religious and educational institutions.”[9] In 1976, Congress passed an amendment to this section to make perfectly clear that “national or international amateur sports competition” serve a charitable purpose under the IRC.[10] However, the statute is not without limitations.

Treasury Regulations, Internal Revenue Service (“IRS”) interpretations and judicial opinions all attempt to define situations in which charitable organizations may lose their tax-exempt status.[11] For example, the IRS takes the position that a charitable organization loses its exempt status if it confers an “excessive benefit” upon parties outside its charitable class.[12] The “charitable class” in the NCAA’s case would refer to student-athletes.[13] Furthermore, when a charitable organization bases its actions on “substantial” commercial activities, in order to keep its tax-exempt status, Treasury Regulations require the organization to be “in furtherance of” an exempt purpose.[14] In theory, it can be argued that Division I football and basketball programs are providing ‘excessive private benefit’ to television networks and professional sports leagues in relationship to the educational benefits provided to the charitable class.[15]
Universities and appearently the student athletes will be subject to taxes, so go ahead and break away and form your unions and get slapped with taxes and union fees. These geniuses will be crawling back on their stomach begging forgiveness from the NCAA. Like Dabo said not considering a college education as proper compensation devalues a college education.

roosterdude21 05-30-2014 10:13 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Wow, that's one way to tell the NCAA you think they're a complete joke

WeCocky 05-31-2014 12:54 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Good chess move by Slive. Power conferences now in the driver seat, NCAA needs to appease them.

DJCatfish 05-31-2014 12:55 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4170842)
Universities and appearently the student athletes will be subject to taxes, so go ahead and break away and form your unions and get slapped with taxes and union fees. These geniuses will be crawling back on their stomach begging forgiveness from the NCAA. Like Dabo said not considering a college education as proper compensation devalues a college education.

Taxes can get pretty high. You're talking up to a 50% (with state taxes included) of the money getting snatched.

The big five leaving the NCAA? Yeah, that's 100% of the money getting snatched. You going to tune in to watch New Mexico play North Dakota State? Don't think so.

We'll see who comes slithering back to who.

Acockolypse Now 05-31-2014 12:58 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
How many times has the NCAA screwed us?

I think rattling their ivory tower is a good move.

BlueHerons 05-31-2014 02:09 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Good move Slive!

Travelin 05-31-2014 05:14 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4170747)
The Power Conferences can't do anything this is all talk the NCAA has all the power.

You're mistaking Slive for the Pope. Slive doesn't blow smoke.

Flameout12 05-31-2014 07:42 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Things change....the world is so different now than when lots of the NCAA regs were established.

I honestly think someone needs to find a way to counter the huge diversion of student athletes to pro sports. With a few exceptions, all of these players need to finish school and get their degrees before leaving.

I support conferences using leverage to make the NCAA get real. This is only going to get worse.

reddot8481 05-31-2014 08:26 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Leaving the NCAA would have no effect on the educational side of the tax burden of the universities. The association doesn't hold the 503 status the universities themselves do.

GamecockInHell 05-31-2014 08:31 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
I think they are all trying to ruin college football. I can remember the days when college student athletes were actually student athletes and used athletics as a way to get an education instead of just using college as a way to play ball and go to the pros. But money talks and thats what its all about.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-31-2014 08:58 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
^This. When will the NCAA haters understand that this whole issue an NFL and NBA problem, personally the pros should allow kids to go pro out of high school and this pay the players crap will die.

A. Pilgrim 05-31-2014 09:19 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
LOL wow...why are people talking about paying players in this thread? Please show me one part in Slive's statements that reference paying players. The full cost of attendance is NOT pay for play.

A. Pilgrim 05-31-2014 09:20 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by reddot8481 (Post 4171181)
Leaving the NCAA would have no effect on the educational side of the tax burden of the universities. The association doesn't hold the 503 status the universities themselves do.


Bingo

But this FACT won't stop SSO from talking out of his ass. He doesn't acknowledge facts.

ccured 05-31-2014 09:52 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4170842)
Universities and appearently the student athletes will be subject to taxes, so go ahead and break away and form your unions and get slapped with taxes and union fees. These geniuses will be crawling back on their stomach begging forgiveness from the NCAA. Like Dabo said not considering a college education as proper compensation devalues a college education.

maybe I am missing something but I do believe the Division 4 will be tax exempt as well. The NFL is tax exempt and the Division 4 will be the same way under 501(c)(6) not 501(c)(3). This how the NFL is tax exempt.
Quote:

Instead, Section 501(c)(6) exempts from taxation "business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade, or professional football leagues (whether or not administering a pension fund for football players), not organized for profit ."

Jeffrey Tenenbaum, a Washington D.C. attorney who chairs the nonprofit organizations group at Venable LLP, says Section 501(c)(6) essentially exempts from taxation, "an organization whose primary purpose is to further the industry or profession it represents."
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/93...tor-tom-coburn

CockTail 05-31-2014 09:56 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
The NCAA has done a terrible job. That being said, I would be very cautious of stepping out from under that umbrella. The NCAA is the punishing body, not fellow schools.

Presumably, if Division IV is created, the schools will be responsible for enforcing and punishing themselves. If you think cheating is rampant now, just wait. The ACC isn't going to punish a fellow school if it thinks it will put that school at a disadvantage and so forth. It could be the Wild Wild West.

The only way to make that work is to appoint an independent, third party organization to handle compliance and enforcement. Then you are back to the NCAA.

Rebel4ever 05-31-2014 09:59 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
At least Slive got it rolling and discussions will take place. Didn't take long to get a football playoff once the talks really heated up. South Carolina Gamecocks Division IV Football National Champs? That's fine with me cause we'd be playing and beating the best of the best in a Division IV model.

A. Pilgrim 05-31-2014 09:59 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CockTail (Post 4171225)
The NCAA has done a terrible job. That being said, I would be very cautious of stepping out from under that umbrella. The NCAA is the punishing body, not fellow schools.

Presumably, if Division IV is created, the schools will be responsible for enforcing and punishing themselves. If you think cheating is rampant now, just wait. The ACC isn't going to punish a fellow school if it thinks it will put that school at a disadvantage and so forth. It could be the Wild Wild West.

The only way to make that work is to appoint an independent, third party organization to handle compliance and enforcement. Then you are back to the NCAA.


The article states that a Division IV would still be under the NCAA umbrella

Rebel4ever 05-31-2014 10:01 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CockTail (Post 4171225)
The NCAA has done a terrible job. That being said, I would be very cautious of stepping out from under that umbrella. The NCAA is the punishing body, not fellow schools.

Presumably, if Division IV is created, the schools will be responsible for enforcing and punishing themselves. If you think cheating is rampant now, just wait. The ACC isn't going to punish a fellow school if it thinks it will put that school at a disadvantage and so forth. It could be the Wild Wild West.

The only way to make that work is to appoint an independent, third party organization to handle compliance and enforcement. Then you are back to the NCAA.

I would think an independent body overseeing a Division IV wouldn't be as strict as the NCAA.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-31-2014 10:24 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A. Pilgrim (Post 4171204)
LOL wow...why are people talking about paying players in this thread? Please show me one part in Slive's statements that reference paying players. The full cost of attendance is NOT pay for play.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention to what the Power Conferences want and paying players is on that list, this is nothing but political posturing by Slive. The Power 5 want pro athletes for football and basketball if you can't understand this then you are out of your mind. The corruption that will follow this will make the 1980s of college football look crystal clean. How about the Power Conferences and Universities start by cleaning up their drug/underage drinking problem, the rape problems, the domestic violence problems, the academic problems before they worry about forming a new division, these problems are rampant across college athletics and needs a ton of reform.

A. Pilgrim 05-31-2014 10:46 AM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4171239)
Obviously you haven't been paying attention to what the Power Conferences want and paying players is on that list, this is nothing but political posturing by Slive. The Power 5 want pro athletes for football and basketball if you can't understand this then you are out of your mind. The corruption that will follow this will make the 1980s of college football look crystal clean. How about the Power Conferences and Universities start by cleaning up their drug/underage drinking problem, the rape problems, the domestic violence problems, the academic problems before they worry about forming a new division, these problems are rampant across college athletics and needs a ton of reform.


So you'd rather have the current level of corruption rather than bringing it into the sunlight?

Anyways- how about we discuss this article rather than inferring hypotheticals that are not included in said article, mkay?

markp_vip 05-31-2014 03:02 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A. Pilgrim (Post 4171229)
The article states that a Division IV would still be under the NCAA umbrella

Exactly, if they weren't proposing staying in the NCAA they wouldn't call it the 4th division. Just talking about adding another division that will have different rules, just like the three existing divisions have different rules ie, no schollies in DIII.

poppabeary3 05-31-2014 03:19 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Stuff like this and the whole "paying players" (not under the table) mess is whats going to be the demise of college athletics' popularity. No one forces these kids to go to college and play a sport. They do so willingly and in return, they get a FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION, FREE gear, FREE food, ect. If that's not good enough, then they can just go train for a few years and then apply for the NFL draft. And for the record, not allowing kids the chance to go pro out of high school, is absurd. College baseball does it right.

markp_vip 05-31-2014 04:52 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poppabeary3 (Post 4171458)
Stuff like this and the whole "paying players" (not under the table) mess is whats going to be the demise of college athletics' popularity. No one forces these kids to go to college and play a sport. They do so willingly and in return, they get a FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION, FREE gear, FREE food, ect. If that's not good enough, then they can just go train for a few years and then apply for the NFL draft. And for the record, not allowing kids the chance to go pro out of high school, is absurd. College baseball does it right.

I think the big difference is that there is an established minor league system for baseball players to go into if they choose to not attend college. If it were not for that I think the majority of kids would go to college and play since they are not ready to play in the big leagues. There are very few football players that could make the jump directly from high school to the NFL. Maybe Jadeveon and couple others over the years, but for 99.99% they just couldn't do it and without a minor league system in place they would still have no choice, but to play in college.

Bobby Boucher 05-31-2014 05:37 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poppabeary3 (Post 4171458)
Stuff like this and the whole "paying players" (not under the table) mess is whats going to be the demise of college athletics' popularity. No one forces these kids to go to college and play a sport. They do so willingly and in return, they get a FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION, FREE gear, FREE food, ect. If that's not good enough, then they can just go train for a few years and then apply for the NFL draft. And for the record, not allowing kids the chance to go pro out of high school, is absurd. College baseball does it right.

Again this isn't about paying players a salary. It's about proving medical care for players who suffer injuries during their playing days with care latter on with those same injuries. Let's say a guy who has no chance at all at the pros breaks his leg in his last game and has all kinds of medical bills to deal with. The schools don't want to leave him hanging. The main thing driving this is long term injuries such as those from concussions and the like.

No one wants the school to pay the players a salary. I would however like for the players to be able to profit off of their likeness. I don't think it's right for the our school to have sold thousands of Clowney jerseys, but he wasn't able to go out and make some cash on his own in a car commercials or hell even sell his autograph for $10 so he could catch a movie. There are simple, smart ways that college athletes can earn some cash based on their popularity without the ADs (and let's be real it'd be us the fans paying for it) having to chip in. But that'd make sense and take a little bit of intelligence and know-how. The NCAA ain't got time for that.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-31-2014 06:08 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markp_vip (Post 4171544)
I think the big difference is that there is an established minor league system for baseball players to go into if they choose to not attend college. If it were not for that I think the majority of kids would go to college and play since they are not ready to play in the big leagues. There are very few football players that could make the jump directly from high school to the NFL. Maybe Jadeveon and couple others over the years, but for 99.99% they just couldn't do it and without a minor league system in place they would still have no choice, but to play in college.

So the NCAA should be considered the villain because the NFL doesn't have farm teams? There is no age limit in the CFL or the Arena League they don't want to go that route because they won't make millions, this sense of entitlement is rampant in this generation, there is no paying your dues you are entitled to make millions well guess what the real world doesn't operate like that.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-31-2014 06:12 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Boucher (Post 4171586)
Again this isn't about paying players a salary. It's about proving medical care for players who suffer injuries during their playing days with care latter on with those same injuries. Let's say a guy who has no chance at all at the pros breaks his leg in his last game and has all kinds of medical bills to deal with. The schools don't want to leave him hanging. The main thing driving this is long term injuries such as those from concussions and the like.

No one wants the school to pay the players a salary. I would however like for the players to be able to profit off of their likeness. I don't think it's right for the our school to have sold thousands of Clowney jerseys, but he wasn't able to go out and make some cash on his own in a car commercials or hell even sell his autograph for $10 so he could catch a movie. There are simple, smart ways that college athletes can earn some cash based on their popularity without the ADs (and let's be real it'd be us the fans paying for it) having to chip in. But that'd make sense and take a little bit of intelligence and know-how. The NCAA ain't got time for that.

You have to carry insurance to play college sports and if you get hurt well it sucks. Here is a novel idea get a job while in college don't feed me you can't do it and manage to play college sports, its pure laziness if you want truth be told if you want something you bust your tail for it, you aren't given anything, you EARN it.

ElectricCock 05-31-2014 06:15 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4171618)
You have to carry insurance to play college sports and if you get hurt well it sucks. Here is a novel idea get a job while in college don't feed me you can't do it and manage to play college sports, its pure laziness if you want truth be told if you want something you bust your tail for it, you aren't given anything, you EARN it.

You are so disconnected from reality its comical

JaxcockFL 05-31-2014 06:15 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4171612)
So the NCAA should be considered the villain because the NFL doesn't have farm teams? There is no age limit in the CFL or the Arena League they don't want to go that route because they won't make millions, this sense of entitlement is rampant in this generation, there is no paying your dues you are entitled to make millions well guess what the real world doesn't operate like that.


WTF are you even ranting about? A guy's image and likeness are used by an organization and he get's nothing beyond what the next guy gets? Guess what? The real world doesn't operate like that.


I am against players being paid, but am for their full cost of attendence being covered and medical / health insurance being provided.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-31-2014 06:29 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ElectricCock (Post 4171620)
You are so disconnected from reality its comical

I'm sorry I didn't know I was the only one of this generation who was raised properly, I was raise on the premise that you earn everything through hard work. But then again it is wrong to expect others to live by a blue collar work ethic. Everything I accomplished in life I did on my own from earning my associate and bachelors degrees, my track accomplishments in college while working one job and serving in the Air Force Reserve, to putting on Staff Sergeant in the Air Force Reserve before I turned 23, all this done without given a damn thing, I earned it all on my own.

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-31-2014 06:30 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaxcockFL (Post 4171621)
WTF are you even ranting about? A guy's image and likeness are used by an organization and he get's nothing beyond what the next guy gets? Guess what? The real world doesn't operate like that.


I am against players being paid, but am for their full cost of attendence being covered and medical / health insurance being provided.

They sign that right away so what's your point, no one forced them to sign that right away.

A. Pilgrim 05-31-2014 07:13 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4171640)
I'm sorry I didn't know I was the only one of this generation who was raised properly, I was raise on the premise that you earn everything through hard work. But then again it is wrong to expect others to live by a blue collar work ethic. Everything I accomplished in life I did on my own from earning my associate and bachelors degrees, my track accomplishments in college while working one job and serving in the Air Force Reserve, to putting on Staff Sergeant in the Air Force Reserve before I turned 23, all this done without given a damn thing, I earned it all on my own.


I think most on this board would agree- if how you present yourself here is any indication of how you were raised, and I can only assume it is, then you most definitely we're not "raised the right way"

Spurrier_Superior_One 05-31-2014 07:57 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
^Honestly I really don't give a hoot about how you or any one feels about me. I excel at everything I do so don't need to justify myself to anyone.

Gamecocks1137 05-31-2014 08:24 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Money people. That is all. Money drives this sport, and if the creation of the SEC Network is any indication, it will only get worse. I think what Slive and heads of the other 4 big conferences want is a little room. You don't make that much money for everything to do with that sport without holding some kind of position of power.

JaxcockFL 05-31-2014 08:35 PM

Re: Slive Threatens with Forming Division IV
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurrier_Superior_One (Post 4171740)
^Honestly I really don't give a hoot about how you or any one feels about me. I excel at everything I do so don't need to justify myself to anyone.


Excluding positions taken here, of course.

Glad you are satisfied with where you are. A man has to know his limitations.


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