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Thread: The "Cult of Frank"

  1. #1
    1st Team All-SEC Wisercock's Avatar
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    Default The "Cult of Frank"

    I had never read this article before and I am surprised this was not discussed more at the time he was hired. It sounds like the author has an axe to grind, but then the circumstances he describes are almost identical to what is happening here.

    Just thought I'd pass it on if anyone cares to read it. Personally, it pushed me over the edge with Frank. I don't care what he has accomplished. The same thing that is happening at SC happened at K-State. Players transferring and he has difficulty recruiting locally.

    https://jugofsnyder.com/2012/05/07/cult-of-frank/

    Here's a quote from the article:

    "Frank Martin is surrounded by a cult of personality.

    The news media fetes him, his subordinates do not dare contradict him, and any player who dares stand up against his bully-boy tactics is belittled in terms that would make Mark Mangino blush. As his tenure as basketball coach at Kansas State wound down, the rumors swirled: mass player defections, a rift with the athletic director, the aforementioned Mangino-like treatment of the players. Martin is on the record, claiming that he “didn’t run” from his problems at K-State. That is not true. He did run. And he “got while the getting was good”, as the saying goes. This is a look at the last days of Frank Martin as K-State’s head men’s basketball coach. They were not the best of times."

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    Gamecocks R US MGMT CockyLifer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Well whatever the reason he was not a bad hire at the time we hired period that can not be debated. The player turnover is our biggest problem imho and that falls on Frank. He did coach that final 4 team into the final 4 regardless how good Thornwell was that was a true team and coaching effort that got us there. Right now I have doubts we will ever get back to that level and why has Silva regressed so much and Kotsar not progressed a lick? Personally I can not answer those questions and Frank seems to not have the answers either which is why we are losing. We are Silva waking up and Kotsar just being a solid contributor away from being competitive in all our games but with Minaya "franks leader" now out it is looking grim for this season at least.
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    1st Team All-SEC sosfan812's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    IF the writer is correct it would explain everything we are seeing with our program. The transfers and extremely poor recruiting. Kids ( and their parents) are not going to put up with a coach like that these days.

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    2nd Team All-SEC CockNJersey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Frank is basically Bob Knight, but doesn’t recruit as well or win nearly as much.

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    Class of 2013 RMaceJr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Ouch... Well if you would have told me before we hired him we would reach a final four I probably would've still taken it. That was something that wasn't even a thought before he came to SC.

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    1st Team All-SEC Wisercock's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by CockyLifer View Post
    Well whatever the reason he was not a bad hire at the time we hired period that can not be debated. The player turnover is our biggest problem imho and that falls on Frank. He did coach that final 4 team into the final 4 regardless how good Thornwell was that was a true team and coaching effort that got us there. Right now I have doubts we will ever get back to that level and why has Silva regressed so much and Kotsar not progressed a lick? Personally I can not answer those questions and Frank seems to not have the answers either which is why we are losing. We are Silva waking up and Kotsar just being a solid contributor away from being competitive in all our games but with Minaya "franks leader" now out it is looking grim for this season at least.
    I agree with you almost entirely. He was a chance worth taking. But the deal with Silva and Kotsar sounds identical to what he faced at K-State. The players just tuned him out, because they didn't want to play for him. There was no joy in the game. But asking him to change his stripes is not going to work. He is what he is now and in the future.

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    Bowl MVP GeoCocky66's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisercock View Post
    I agree with you almost entirely. He was a chance worth taking. But the deal with Silva and Kotsar sounds identical to what he faced at K-State. The players just tuned him out, because they didn't want to play for him. There was no joy in the game. But asking him to change his stripes is not going to work. He is what he is now and in the future.

    This is one of the things that I've felt most clearly the past 2 years. When we play loose and play well, things are great. You can see it in the way that our guys play and respond. But when things aren't going well, it's painful to watch. To me, one of the best things about the Final Four run, particularly the improbable second half come backs, was the joy that the guys had; you could just feel everyone was together and playing with passion. We haven't seen that much since then, and a lot of us get the sense that this is one of Silva's problems this year (micromanagement, criticism, frustration, etc.). Right now, Bryant is one of the few guys that consistently comes in and plays with passion, enthusiasm and without fear, even if he makes freshman mistakes. I hope that doesn't get stamped out of him. I just don't see things changing with Frank or the team, though I hope I'm wrong.

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    1st Team All-SEC Wisercock's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoCocky66 View Post
    This is one of the things that I've felt most clearly the past 2 years. When we play loose and play well, things are great. You can see it in the way that our guys play and respond. But when things aren't going well, it's painful to watch. To me, one of the best things about the Final Four run, particularly the improbable second half come backs, was the joy that the guys had; you could just feel everyone was together and playing with passion. We haven't seen that much since then, and a lot of us get the sense that this is one of Silva's problems this year (micromanagement, criticism, frustration, etc.). Right now, Bryant is one of the few guys that consistently comes in and plays with passion, enthusiasm and without fear, even if he makes freshman mistakes. I hope that doesn't get stamped out of him. I just don't see things changing with Frank or the team, though I hope I'm wrong.
    I think Frank's philosophy is that if he doesn't have talented players he can take marginal players and squeeze better performance out of them. I remember when Bruce Ellington was on the team (he quit basketball too) Frank treated him with more deference than the other guards because Bruce had talent. The trouble with that is that he can also crush their enthusiasm for the game.

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    2nd Team All-SEC CockNJersey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    It seems the writing is on the wall for Frank. We are not going to the tournament this year, barring some kind of miracle turnaround. We will most likely enter conference play 6-6, meaning we would need to go at least 13-5 in conference just to get to 20 wins.

    Given that we most likely wont be going dancing this year and the lackluster class we have coming in, does he get another year? We are probably going to get somewhere around 12-15 wins. Tanner has to evaluate whether it’s likely that we’ll morph into a tournament team next season. Odds are that we won’t.

    I think you also have to consider that Frank’s best season here came on the shoulders of 2 players: Thornwell and Dozier. The rest of his recruits combined haven’t amounted to much.

    Basically, is there an advantage to keeping him another year? Is 7 years enough to judge him on?

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    1st Team All-SEC Wisercock's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by CockNJersey View Post
    It seems the writing is on the wall for Frank. We are not going to the tournament this year, barring some kind of miracle turnaround. We will most likely enter conference play 6-6, meaning we would need to go at least 13-5 in conference just to get to 20 wins.

    Given that we most likely seeing going dancing this year and the lackluster class we have coming in, does he get another year? We are probably going to get somewhere around 12-15 wins. Tanner has to evaluate whether itís likely that weíll morph into a tournament team next season. Odds are that we wonít.

    I think you also have to consider that Frankís beast season here came on the shoulders of 2 players: Thornwell and Dozier. The rest of his recruits combined havenít amounted to much.

    Basically, is there an advantage to keeping him another year? Is 7 years enough to judge him on?
    I'm waiting on Thumpin and Ace to comment.

    Seriously, Tanner will have to make the call based on what he has done here and not what happened somewhere else 8 years ago. If the team improves throughout the season then Frank will get another year. If we stink it up in conference play and there looks to be another round of transfers out then that presents a different set of circumstances. We don't have enough talent coming in next season to make up for losses other than Silva and Gravett.

    Tanner will also have to factor in attendance and poor local recruiting. Is Martin burning bridges here like he did in Kansas? Can the program survive as an in-state university that can't sign players within a 10 mile radius?

    Tough call for Tanner. I hope he is not intimidated by Frank.

  11. #11
    1st Team All-American gamecockphan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Take note of UTk and Auburn. Bring in a coach who can recruit. We can good very quickly if we have talent.

    Frank has squandered the Final Four run. It’s pathetic and disturbing. How can he be so crappy at recruiting?

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    1st Team All-SEC sosfan812's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    I think Frank will leave for another job before he gets fired.

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    2nd Team All-SEC CockNJersey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisercock View Post
    I'm waiting on Thumpin and Ace to comment.

    Seriously, Tanner will have to make the call based on what he has done here and not what happened somewhere else 8 years ago. If the team improves throughout the season then Frank will get another year. If we stink it up in conference play and there looks to be another round of transfers out then that presents a different set of circumstances. We don't have enough talent coming in next season to make up for losses other than Silva and Gravett.

    Tanner will also have to factor in attendance and poor local recruiting. Is Martin burning bridges here like he did in Kansas? Can the program survive as an in-state university that can't sign players within a 10 mile radius?

    Tough call for Tanner. I hope he is not intimidated by Frank.
    It is a tough call and I’m not advocating either way. I do think you can pretty fairly well judge him after 7 full seasons though. Also, as you say, Tanner absolutely has to consider that Frank has been a disaster in local recruiting. What happened with this year’s crop is a travesty.

    But there’s also the option that we just accept that this is how we are as a basketball program and maybe Frank is as good as we can do.
    Last edited by CockNJersey; 11-28-2018 at 10:35 AM.

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    If C2 doesn't trust you.. CoverTwo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    I think Frank will leave for another job before he gets fired.
    Let's all be serious, he should've taken the UNLV job. That would've been a good fit for him. A school that really cares about their basketball program. That has history and championships (even if they were bought and paid for). And its close to a major college basketball talent hotbed (Los Angeles). He made a big mistake not going there.
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    Starter SheckWes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by CoverTwo View Post
    Let's all be serious, he should've taken the UNLV job. That would've been a good fit for him. A school that really cares about their basketball program. That has history and championships (even if they were bought and paid for). And its close to a major college basketball talent hotbed (Los Angeles). He made a big mistake not going there.
    Iíd even say today Las Vegas/ the state of Nevada has become a talent hot bed.
    Most because of Findlay, but itís very easy to go out and recruit them

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    Household Name thumpin big's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    What has Frank done at USC in 6 seasons? He has had 4 consecutive winning seasons. He has been to a Final Four. He has a 4-1 record in the NCAAT. He has the winningest season in school history. He has the winningest back to back years in school history. Does that sound like someone you want to kick to the curb?

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    If C2 doesn't trust you.. CoverTwo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by thumpin big View Post
    What has Frank done at USC in 6 seasons? He has had 4 consecutive winning seasons. He has been to a Final Four. He has a 4-1 record in the NCAAT. He has the winningest season in school history. He has the winningest back to back years in school history. Does that sound like someone you want to kick to the curb?
    He had two 17-16 years. He has the same winning % as Dave Odom albeit Dave had 8 years.

    Frank gets credit for Final 4. No questions asked. It was a phenomenal accomplishment. But he has been ho hum outside of that 1 month where his team got hot.
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    Buckle up, BOOM Comin' SCohioBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by thumpin big View Post
    What has Frank done at USC in 6 seasons? He has had 4 consecutive winning seasons. He has been to a Final Four. He has a 4-1 record in the NCAAT. He has the winningest season in school history. He has the winningest back to back years in school history. Does that sound like someone you want to kick to the curb?
    45-63.

    2 good years vs 5 bad years. A program that is regressing, recruiting that is failing. Massive above the "norm of college basketball" transfers. Alienating a fan base.
    "We played the State Championship in a place called Death Valley," he said. "I looked up in the fourth quarter and the only ones still alive were the Gamecocks."--SOS

  19. #19
    If C2 doesn't trust you.. CoverTwo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Oh and Kansas State is doing just fine with Bruce Weber.
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    2nd Team All-SEC CockNJersey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

    Quote Originally Posted by thumpin big View Post
    What has Frank done at USC in 6 seasons? He has had 4 consecutive winning seasons. He has been to a Final Four. He has a 4-1 record in the NCAAT. He has the winningest season in school history. He has the winningest back to back years in school history. Does that sound like someone you want to kick to the curb?
    Itís about the trajectory of the program.

    3 of those accomplishments you mention were the all the same season.

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