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Thread: Frank's state recruiting

  1. #61
    1st Team All-American Ace Dilcock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    You're using McGuire because you have no come back to what I said. I lived through McGuires time, infact he handed me my mvp in basketball trophy my senior year. You need to understand how things were 40 years ago. Basketball was an after thought in SC UNTIL McGuire changed that. The state started having elite players such as English, Corbin and the xman . The 80's saw fogler take advantage of that with Manning, Rhett, jo jo, watson and we were very successful AND had a great fan following because of that. Notice after the ff we still didnt have the fans. South Carolina kids will help change that. Sid came here because Roy Williams told him they were full and to go to SC. PJ was a legacy and was paid for however they proved my point about the need for elite SC players. In state players generate more fan support and are great players. Read what I say and not what you think I'm thinking.
    We did not have the fans after the Final Four because we have not had consistent, sustained success. The fans did not flock to the arena after the back-to-back NIT titles either - when we had more in-state players. Personally, I care more about effort and heart than location when I follow players - I really liked players such as Carrera,Silva and Notice because they played hard. Frank likes that kind of player as well.

    You mentioned Fogler's success with in-state players - how many were really good, good enough to make the NBA? Or, better yet - gasp - win an NCAA tournament game? Yeah, we need to go back to that mindset.

    Foster passed on Corbin, and only wanted X-Man if he went JUCO first. Bonehead evaluations like that have really hurt us. But Frank recruits the best in-state players and recruits them hard, even if he does not get that many of them - what more can he do? Except win with out of state players that want to play here, and win more games so we are more attractive to the top in-state guys.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
    We did not have the fans after the Final Four because we have not had consistent, sustained success. The fans did not flock to the arena after the back-to-back NIT titles either - when we had more in-state players. Personally, I care more about effort and heart than location when I follow players - I really liked players such as Carrera,Silva and Notice because they played hard. Frank likes that kind of player as well.

    You mentioned Fogler's success with in-state players - how many were really good, good enough to make the NBA? Or, better yet - gasp - win an NCAA tournament game? Yeah, we need to go back to that mindset.

    Foster passed on Corbin, and only wanted X-Man if he went JUCO first. Bonehead evaluations like that have really hurt us. But Frank recruits the best in-state players and recruits them hard, even if he does not get that many of them - what more can he do? Except win with out of state players that want to play here, and win more games so we are more attractive to the top in-state guys.
    Not one single word you typed proved me wrong...not one.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    I am admittedly very critical of Frank Martin's recruiting and roster management but what he has put together for this season has me willing to sit back and see what happens. His team clearly should be very, very good this year.
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    You're using McGuire because you have no come back to what I said. I lived through McGuires time, infact he handed me my mvp in basketball trophy my senior year. You need to understand how things were 40 years ago. Basketball was an after thought in SC UNTIL McGuire changed that. The state started having elite players such as English, Corbin and the xman . The 80's saw fogler take advantage of that with Manning, Rhett, jo jo, watson and we were very successful AND had a great fan following because of that. Notice after the ff we still didnt have the fans. South Carolina kids will help change that. Sid came here because Roy Williams told him they were full and to go to SC. PJ was a legacy and was paid for however they proved my point about the need for elite SC players. In state players generate more fan support and are great players. Read what I say and not what you think I'm thinking.
    You stated you lived through the McGuire years. As stated McGuire's teams were loaded with OOS players and our arena was filled with fans, not because of having SC players but because we were having very successful teams. Fan support because of us having SC players will come mostly from family and friends and this combined will not fill many seats. The big crowds come when we are having very good seasons. This is true in any sport. Good talent and winning fills the seats, not SC recruits.

    Dawn's team is loaded with OOS talent this season and we will have big crowds because we should have a very successful season. Fans will not stay away because of a shortage of local players. Prove me wrong.

    Winning fills the seats, not where the players are from. Prove me wrong.

    Also did not see a list of successful schools I requested from you who have been good because of in state players. Prove me wrong.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by CoverTwo View Post
    I am admittedly very critical of Frank Martin's recruiting and roster management but what he has put together for this season has me willing to sit back and see what happens. His team clearly should be very, very good this year.
    I appreciate the fact you are honest and open minded.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Spur20001 View Post
    You stated you lived through the McGuire years. As stated McGuire's teams were loaded with OOS players and our arena was filled with fans, not because of having SC players but because we were having very successful teams. Fan support because of us having SC players will come mostly from family and friends and this combined will not fill many seats. The big crowds come when we are having very good seasons. This is true in any sport. Good talent and winning fills the seats, not SC recruits.

    Dawn's team is loaded with OOS talent this season and we will have big crowds because we should have a very successful season. Fans will not stay away because of a shortage of local players. Prove me wrong.

    Winning fills the seats, not where the players are from. Prove me wrong.

    Also did not see a list of successful schools I requested from you who have been good because of in state players. Prove me wrong.
    You still haven't disproved anthing I stated about our past success from the 80's until now.

  7. #67
    1st Team All-American Ace Dilcock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    You still haven't disproved anthing I stated about our past success from the 80's until now.
    Disprove what?? What past success????

    Correct me if I am wrong, but only the Franks have won an NCAA tournament game - or produced a successful NBA player. Am I right? In other words, in the years where we relied on in-state players, we did not have anyone that was really good - or have a really good team. The best in-state players went elsewhere. So there is nothing that you have shown that needs to be disproved.

    Alex English played on the last team before Martin to win an NCAA tournament game. But we only had two in-state players on the roster, one starter, and the leading scorer on that team was Kevin Joyce from NY. Prior to English, McGuire did not have an in-state starter or even a big contributor. And he did okay.

    Martin has recruited in-state with limited success - less than his predecessors - but has accomplished something than none of the other coaches have, including McGuire. Not only win an NCAA tournament game, but go the the Final Four. I say we let him recruit who he wants.

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    1st Team All-American Ace Dilcock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    You still haven't disproved anthing I stated about our past success from the 80's until now.
    Disprove what?? What past success????

    Correct me if I am wrong, but only the Franks have won an NCAA tournament game - or produced a successful NBA player. Am I right? In other words, in the years where we relied on in-state players, we did not have anyone that was really good - or have a really good team. The best in-state players went elsewhere. So there is nothing that you have shown that needs to be disproved.

    Alex English played on the last team before Martin to win an NCAA tournament game, as a Freshman. But we only had two in-state players on the roster, one starter, and the leading scorer on that team was Kevin Joyce from NY. Prior to English, McGuire did not have an in-state starter or even a big contributor. And he did okay.

    Martin has recruited in-state with limited success - less than his predecessors - but has accomplished something that none of the other coaches have, including McGuire. Not only win an NCAA tournament game, but go to the the Final Four. I say we let him recruit who he wants.
    Last edited by Ace Dilcock; 08-09-2019 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    You still haven't disproved anthing I stated about our past success from the 80's until now.
    He smashed any argument you had. We werenít good in the 80ís, werenít very successful in the 90ís or
    2000ís.

    Fans dont care as much about where the players are from as they do about winning. We didnít fill the stands after the final four because our team was trash, and Frank did his usual bit and got pissy with the fans. Win and fans show up,
    period

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    You still haven't disproved anthing I stated about our past success from the 80's until now.
    Really? During the McGuire glory years fans were outside the arena begging for tickets for our conference games. This was because we had very good teams, not local talent.

    Sure, things have changed during the past 40 years as you stated but one thing has not changed. The big crowds come when we are having a good season, not because of local talent.

    You ignored two things I brought to your attention:

    1. Dawn's team is loaded with OOS talent this year. Will the fans stay away because we have a shortage of local talent.

    2. Since you have twice declined to post a list of good programs being good because they rely on local talent I will give you a few examples to shoot down your argument:

    Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, Michigan State. Have these schools had good programs because of in state talent or do they get most of their players from OOS?

    Your words "In State players generate more fan support and are great players". This has to go down as one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. Who was the worst player on our team the last two years? Was he from SC? Yes, I clearly have disproved your point. Good teams generate great fan support much more than local talent and many players from SC are very far from being great players.
    Last edited by Spur20001; 08-10-2019 at 04:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    How I feel about players is governed by a lot of factors. Talent, effort and attitude are at the top of the list. I can't say that I don't care where the players cone from, but that is waaay down the list.

    If I had a chance to win one more game playing with all OOS players, versus winning one less game with all in-state players, I would go with winning the extra game.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
    How I feel about players is governed by a lot of factors. Talent, effort and attitude are at the top of the list. I can't say that I don't care where the players cone from, but that is waaay down the list.

    If I had a chance to win one more game playing with all OOS players, versus winning one less game with all in-state players, I would go with winning the extra game.
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    It's amazing to me that people can look at the history of South Carolina basketball and conclude that having instate players in the magic sauce. That's the exact wrong conclusion to draw.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by VBCock View Post
    It's amazing to me that people can look at the history of South Carolina basketball and conclude that having instate players in the magic sauce. That's the exact wrong conclusion to draw.
    Our high water mark was 1996-1997 under Fogler, with a team that went 15-1 in the SEC, won the championship, and was a #2 NCAA tournament team. That team was heavy with in-state players - the three Guards were the stars and top scorers, and all were from in-state. BJ McKie, Larry Davis, Melvin Watson.

    That same team lost three games to ACC opponents - North Carolina by 9, Clemson by 19, UVA by 23. They also lost to Charleston Southern and UNC Asheville, both at home. Then there was the 15 point loss to #15 seed Coppin State. I realize that we played better after an abysmal start, but the other observation that is logical is this: The SEC sucked that year.

    None of the players went on to successful NBA careers.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
    Our high water mark was 1996-1997 under Fogler, with a team that went 15-1 in the SEC, won the championship, and was a #2 NCAA tournament team. That team was heavy with in-state players - the three Guards were the stars and top scorers, and all were from in-state. BJ McKie, Larry Davis, Melvin Watson.

    That same team lost three games to ACC opponents - North Carolina by 9, Clemson by 19, UVA by 23. They also lost to Charleston Southern and UNC Asheville, both at home. Then there was the 15 point loss to #15 seed Coppin State. I realize that we played better after an abysmal start, but the other observation that is logical is this: The SEC sucked that year.

    None of the players went on to successful NBA careers.
    Good college players don't always translate to good pro players. To compare the two is ludicrous. Look no further than Duke players.
    Thank you for pounting out that one of our successful regular seasons were led by homegrown talent.

  16. #76
    1st Team All-American Ace Dilcock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Good college players don't always translate to good pro players, but great ones almost always do. We just have not gotten any from in-state - certainly not on the level of Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, X-Man, Jermaine O'Neal and many others. And no high draft picks, like the in-state #1 and #2 picks from earlier this year.

    As things stand now, AJ Lawson - from out of state and out of the country - will be - at least - the highest draft pick we have had since Tom Boswell went #17 in 1975 (Alex English went in the Second Round in 1976). FYI, Boswell transferred from SC State but was originally from Montgomery, Alabama.

    I am not trying to be combative, but we just have not been that good with in-state guys, in part because we have not been getting the best in-state guys. So if Frank continues to go after the best in-state players, and then grabs talented OOS and OOC players to fill out his roster when he does not get many of the better players, then why are we complaining? I get that the last two years have been underwhelming, but we had great success three years ago, still finished #4 in the SEC last year - after injuries crippled us in the out of conference portion of the schedule - and this year looks to be really good. If we fall on our face, come back then and complain.

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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
    Our high water mark was 1996-1997 under Fogler, with a team that went 15-1 in the SEC, won the championship, and was a #2 NCAA tournament team. That team was heavy with in-state players - the three Guards were the stars and top scorers, and all were from in-state. BJ McKie, Larry Davis, Melvin Watson.

    That same team lost three games to ACC opponents - North Carolina by 9, Clemson by 19, UVA by 23. They also lost to Charleston Southern and UNC Asheville, both at home. Then there was the 15 point loss to #15 seed Coppin State. I realize that we played better after an abysmal start, but the other observation that is logical is this: The SEC sucked that year.

    None of the players went on to successful NBA careers.
    Unless you want to count Tennessee native Ryan Stack.

  18. #78
    1st Team All-American Ace Dilcock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Stack was the #48 pick, Second Round, and played one season in the NBA, averaging 2.3 points. Which is why I did not count him as a high pick or a successful NBA player.

    But it is telling that the only player from our best team that got drafted was from out of state.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
    Stack was the #48 pick, Second Round, and played one season in the NBA, averaging 2.3 points. Which is why I did not count him as a high pick or a successful NBA player.

    But it is telling that the only player from our best team that got drafted was from out of state.
    Guess you're not able to comprehend facts lol. Lets hope for a successful year.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Frank's state recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
    Guess you're not able to comprehend facts lol. Lets hope for a successful year.
    The last sentence is something that we can agree on.

    Look, I was born and raised in this state and have followed Gamecock basketball for a long time. If all things were equal, I would prefer to find success with in-state players. I hope that the in-state players change their opinion of South Carolina in the future, and that the manipulative AAU guys stop pushing their guys out of state. But until that happens, we need to focus on the players that want to come here - and we can be successful with them. VERY successful, like we were under McGuire, and like we were two years ago with a mix of in-state and out of state players.

    I will be very happy when we get our first one and done from in-state. That would show that we have arrived.

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