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Old 02-23-2014, 08:20 AM   #1
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Default In Mens basketball

...how much better are we now than before ? I understand that there was a downward spiral under Horn and it was a failed staff. The problem is we are no better as a team than we were then. I will accept that Frank Martin had a better resume and has brought in different players but the records are no better and the crowds are still smaller. This is a sport where one or two good players can make a big difference with a good supporting cast but I just don't see that transpiring. I am not a "doubting Debbie" so to speak but when I look into the crystal ball, I don't see Frank as our road map to success. We passed on Greg Marshall twice for what ever reason and the guy has produced everywhere and we haven't. If we are better off now than we were under Horn (and I am no Horn fan by a long shot ) then please explain how ? I think we made the wrong hire twice and the next time we need to get it right. Don't give me the "Rome wasn't built in a day " crap. We are not building Rome.....
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

I get what you mean. Different coach, same results. No reason to expect a great improvement next season either, some but not great. There are flashes here and there but we have maybe 2 players that are ready to take us to the next level and they can't get it done alone. Still so many needs around this team year after year its the same story.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

I understand where you're coming from. I was definitely hoping for better results this year too. However, I'm not going to say we made a bad hire just yet. He's got one more year, for me, to turn this program around. Next year, we should win most of these close games we lost this year, I also expect us to pull an upset or two of teams we aren't supposed to beat. We need to finish next year strong, with a noticeable difference from the beginning of the season.
Now, I haven't really followed our basketball recruiting, so I'm not sure if he's got any high talent players coming in. But if he doesn't, and he can't win with the talent he is bringing in then, So Long I'll See Ya.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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Originally Posted by Tolley View Post
I understand where you're coming from. I was definitely hoping for better results this year too. However, I'm not going to say we made a bad hire just yet. He's got one more year, for me, to turn this program around. Next year, we should win most of these close games we lost this year, I also expect us to pull an upset or two of teams we aren't supposed to beat. We need to finish next year strong, with a noticeable difference from the beginning of the season.
Now, I haven't really followed our basketball recruiting, so I'm not sure if he's got any high talent players coming in. But if he doesn't, and he can't win with the talent he is bringing in then, So Long I'll See Ya.
He didn't have too many high talent players come to KSU. Yes there were a few good ones, but he also had time to develop his players. Development happens on different levels for players. The only guy that should have really been expected to come in and play like he belongs is Thornwell. Anything else has been a surprise. Notice will be fine. And I really believe that Henry and Ringer will be ok after a couple years in the conditioning program. I already see a difference in L-Chat.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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Originally Posted by gamecock88 View Post
I get what you mean. Different coach, same results. No reason to expect a great improvement next season either, some but not great. There are flashes here and there but we have maybe 2 players that are ready to take us to the next level and they can't get it done alone. Still so many needs around this team year after year its the same story.
Every analyst has said the core is here. With the addition of Stroman, Blanton, and possibly Sheppard, we are still going to be considered a young team next year and there will be growing pains. The thing to keep in mind is that Johnson will be back, Stroman is a great young player and we won't have to strictly rely on him. I expect to see improvement next year, but the year to really watch out for is 2 years from now, especially if we add an elite player like PJ Dozier.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:29 AM   #6
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

...and I hate the Spurrier/Martin comparisons. It's not the same as football. The SEC is not some kind of basketball super conference.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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Originally Posted by SanAntonioCock View Post
...and I hate the Spurrier/Martin comparisons. It's not the same as football. The SEC is not some kind of basketball super conference.
Everyone is on board with Dawn Staley and she took 4 years put a quality team out there. Coach K also struggled at Duke for the first few years, but I'm sure Duke fans are glad they didn't just turn on him in year 2.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:14 AM   #8
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

The hardest thing for us to do is recruit quality players. We are recruiting players who are also getting courted by all the big time programs. Makes it tough to sell the players on coming to USC when we are in a big rut.

The thing that really gets me is it seems our team as a whole really lacks a high level of understanding about fundamentals... What to do to beat a press, weak side defensive help, good rotations on D, boxing out, good ball movement on offense, effective screening, back door cuts, etc. Until our team fully understands those things and can implement them in game I just don't see us getting much better.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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The hardest thing for us to do is recruit quality players. We are recruiting players who are also getting courted by all the big time programs. Makes it tough to sell the players on coming to USC when we are in a big rut.

The thing that really gets me is it seems our team as a whole really lacks a high level of understanding about fundamentals... What to do to beat a press, weak side defensive help, good rotations on D, boxing out, good ball movement on offense, effective screening, back door cuts, etc. Until our team fully understands those things and can implement them in game I just don't see us getting much better.
They are learning a new offense. They are learning how Frank wants to play man defense. Frank has said that the guys didn't play much man defense so it makes it even harder to coach because he is having to start from the ground up in that sense, which means he also has to spend time going over zone defense until we can play his style of man. On top of that we have a bunch of undersized post players that haven't been in the conditioning program long enough to go up against some of these 260 pound guys. The funny part is you have a problem with them boxing out, but they have outrebounded most opponents. Give it longer than 1 3/4 to 3/4 of a learning curve and these guys will be fine. The last thing our future recruits need to see on a message board is the fan base turning on the coach already. It's ridiculous.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:42 AM   #10
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

You have to wait until year #4
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

I am having trouble being optimistic about "building a program" because of the post play. You cannot build a program without solid post play. We currently have horrendous post play. I'm not convinced anyone on the roster is going to be a solid post performer. The Lithuanians are unathletic and low upside. Ringer is a below the rim guy who never sees the court even with our current troubles. Henry may have upside but has no aggressiveness, no offensive game, and is constantly lost.

In our current class we are bringing in a point guard and shooting guard. No post players on the way.

As long as we have terrible post play we will continue to be one of, if not the worst program in the conference.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:00 PM   #12
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

One of the biggest problems in basketball recruiting right now is that there isn't a huge depth of talent in South Carolina. We signed Sindarius Thornwell last year and he is going to be a great player. Horn left the cupboard bare, so it will take until year 4 for Frank to turn it around.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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One of the biggest problems in basketball recruiting right now is that there isn't a huge depth of talent in South Carolina. We signed Sindarius Thornwell last year and he is going to be a great player. Horn left the cupboard bare, so it will take until year 4 for Frank to turn it around.
I disagree about the cupboard being bare. Gill and Harris would have made this a much easier transition. Brenton has been phenomenal, and as of right now I sure do miss Ellington. Sure Horn missed on some guys, but he missed on guys that were getting the same level of attention from major programs as the guys that Martin is going after.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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I disagree about the cupboard being bare. Gill and Harris would have made this a much easier transition. Brenton has been phenomenal, and as of right now I sure do miss Ellington. Sure Horn missed on some guys, but he missed on guys that were getting the same level of attention from major programs as the guys that Martin is going after.
Gill and Harris also didn't want to work at the intensity level that Martin required, they knew they were going to bolt before the ink was dried on Martin's contract.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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Gill and Harris also didn't want to work at the intensity level that Martin required, they knew they were going to bolt before the ink was dried on Martin's contract.
Maybe, but it's not like people can't change just look at Brenton.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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Gill and Harris also didn't want to work at the intensity level that Martin required, they knew they were going to bolt before the ink was dried on Martin's contract.
I think Gill and Harris just wanted to go to a better basketball program. They didn't want to suffer through more losing. Both would be seniors next season if they stayed. Also, their minutes might have dropped since they weren't recruited by the current staff.
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Old 02-23-2014, 02:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

Please don't try to compare the first years with Frank to the first years with Horn. It's disrespectful to Frank and Odom.
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Old 02-23-2014, 02:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

Dawn Staley was 10-18 and 14-15 her first two seasons here. Year three they managed to make the WNIT with an 18-15 record. Now, three seasons later, we are contending for an SEC championship and a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament. Trying to determine if Martin is a successful/failed hire in the middle of his second season is way too impatient. Like others have said on here, year 4 is the number.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:55 PM   #19
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

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Dawn Staley was 10-18 and 14-15 her first two seasons here. Year three they managed to make the WNIT with an 18-15 record. Now, three seasons later, we are contending for an SEC championship and a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament. Trying to determine if Martin is a successful/failed hire in the middle of his second season is way too impatient. Like others have said on here, year 4 is the number.
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Old 02-23-2014, 02:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: In Mens basketball

I have confidence in CFM. An awful second half yesterday and the crying rears it's ugly head again. I am going to give him more time as we did Dawn and that has certainly paid off even when her star player (Bone) cried and quit on us.
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