CockyTalk

Welcome to Cockytalk!

Thank you for visiting our forum. As a guest, you have limited access to view some discussion and articles. By joining our free community, you will be able to view all discussions and articles, post your own topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos, participate in Pick'Em contests and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today!!

If you have any problems registering or logging in, please contact our Admins. Thanks!

Go Back   CockyTalk > Other Sports > The Locker Room

Today's Top 10
Posters (by posts)Threads (by views)Newest Posts Gamecock Headlines 
Jim Lahey
Storm Of Spurs
roosterdude21
kingofnerf
Gamecocks1137
GarnetSwarm1990
Sandstorm29
WeStillOwnUSC
Absfract
MWard
Wilds & Carson B (2403)
Marquavius Lewis (2167)
So, why is next year (2143)
How Long Will The Re (1319)
Restaurant musts in (1017)
Why do so many of yo (831)
Shot in the arm for (745)
Schuyler Rimmer 6'10 (709)
Custom Jersey (357)
5 Gourmet Foods That (243)
2015 - Mark Fields
2015 - Cedarius Rookard
2015 Commitment - Dante S
Marquavius Lewis
Schuyler Rimmer 6'10"
2015 Signee - Ulric Jones
So, why is next year goin
Why do so many of you guy
The Vent and Coaching cha
Custom Jersey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-26-2014, 04:15 PM   #1
uscgmck
I'm Baaacck
 
uscgmck's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lexington
Posts: 2,800
CockyCash: 100500
uscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot materialuscgmck is USC mascot material
Default Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Details coming

Just a one member vote. Now will go to whole NLRB Board.

NW president said if player are employees football at NW probably done.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...n-bid-unionize

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/0...l-agency-says/
__________________
Remember amateurs built the ark - Professionals built the Titanic.
uscgmck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 04:28 PM   #2
3MTA3
Game MVP
 
3MTA3's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SEC Country
Posts: 1,505
CockyCash: 500
3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Good. College athletes deserve representation as primary players in the BIG BUSINESS of college sports.
3MTA3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 04:56 PM   #3
B-G
2nd Team All-SEC
 
B-G's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wall Street
Posts: 2,851
CockyCash: 500
B-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot materialB-G is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MTA3 View Post
Good. College athletes deserve representation as primary players in the BIG BUSINESS of college sports.
Is it athletes? Or just football and basketball players?
B-G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:00 PM   #4
USCBatgirl21
Official Baseball Chick
 
USCBatgirl21's Avatar
 
Female

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sec 4, Row 1, Seat 16 - Carolina Stadium
Posts: 10,019
CockyCash: 1000500
USCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot material
Send a message via MSN to USCBatgirl21
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-G View Post
Is it athletes? Or just football and basketball players?
Right now it's just football. But it's na´ve to think that it eventually would not encompass ALL athletes at a school, which is when Title IX will come into play.
USCBatgirl21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:17 PM   #5
3MTA3
Game MVP
 
3MTA3's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SEC Country
Posts: 1,505
CockyCash: 500
3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by USCBatgirl21 View Post
Right now it's just football. But it's na´ve to think that it eventually would not encompass ALL athletes at a school, which is when Title IX will come into play.

Never underestimate the ability for lawyers and lawmakers to find a way around current legislation, or re-write current legislation.

Anyone who thinks Title IX is going to be the end-all, be-all road block to player compensation is delusional.
3MTA3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 06:17 PM   #6
Lalli25
2nd Team All-American
 
Lalli25's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Centreville, Va
Posts: 8,021
CockyCash: 380
Lalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot materialLalli25 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MTA3 View Post
Never underestimate the ability for lawyers and lawmakers to find a way around current legislation, or re-write current legislation.

Anyone who thinks Title IX is going to be the end-all, be-all road block to player compensation is delusional.
Anyone who things Title IX will be circumnavigated is ignorant to politics and the influence of women's rights organization. No way Title IX is altered to allow male sports differnt pay than women.
__________________
Lalli25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:40 PM   #7
GapoGamecock51
I Put Threadz 2 Sleep
 
GapoGamecock51's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Columbia, SC/But my heart is in the Philippines
Posts: 9,591
CockyCash: 24873509
GapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot materialGapoGamecock51 is USC mascot material
Send a message via AIM to GapoGamecock51 Send a message via Yahoo to GapoGamecock51
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MTA3 View Post
Good. College athletes deserve representation as primary players in the BIG BUSINESS of college sports.
They deserve something, but it seems to me the rules of college football could be amended to include some sort of monetary subsistence.....There already getting a free college education....Plus, on top of that, I am assuming that the benefits of training facilities and other high priced accomodations that players receive at major universities, are a partial payment as well.....Granted most are there to further an attempt to play professionally, but that does not negate the fact that most will not make it.........If the degree is worth anything, then it is worth something as a fall back measure if their professional careers do not pan out. That being said, I have no objections to a third year player leaving to attempt to ply his trade in the NFL, and if it doesn't work out coming back to finish up his degree.


Gapo
__________________
GapoGamecock51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:53 PM   #8
3MTA3
Game MVP
 
3MTA3's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SEC Country
Posts: 1,505
CockyCash: 500
3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by GapoGamecock51 View Post
They deserve something, but it seems to me the rules of college football could be amended to include some sort of monetary subsistence.....There already getting a free college education....Plus, on top of that, I am assuming that the benefits of training facilities and other high priced accomodations that players receive at major universities, are a partial payment as well.....Granted most are there to further an attempt to play professionally, but that does not negate the fact that most will not make it.........If the degree is worth anything, then it is worth something as a fall back measure if their professional careers do not pan out. That being said, I have no objections to a third year player leaving to attempt to ply his trade in the NFL, and if it doesn't work out coming back to finish up his degree.





Gapo

But that's not the point of this ruling.

This ruling is about considering the players employees this allowing them to unionize.

If we step back and take the emotion out of this (OH NO! MY CFB IS GOING AWAY!) then we must look at the fact that college athletes currently receive compensation (scholarships) in return for services rendered. This is different than typical students who receive a scholarship simply for meeting qualifications. Sure, if they don't go to class they can lose the scholarship, but that's only because they no longer qualify (GPA drops below a threshold).

So since college athletes receive compensation for services rendered, they must be considered employees, thus giving them the same right as any employee.
3MTA3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 06:48 PM   #9
ReadR00ster
Banned
 
ReadR00ster's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 9,864
CockyCash: 1220
ReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MTA3 View Post
But that's not the point of this ruling.

This ruling is about considering the players employees this allowing them to unionize.

If we step back and take the emotion out of this (OH NO! MY CFB IS GOING AWAY!) then we must look at the fact that college athletes currently receive compensation (scholarships) in return for services rendered. This is different than typical students who receive a scholarship simply for meeting qualifications. Sure, if they don't go to class they can lose the scholarship, but that's only because they no longer qualify (GPA drops below a threshold).

So since college athletes receive compensation for services rendered, they must be considered employees, thus giving them the same right as any employee.
If an athlete doesn't keep his grades up he loses his scholarship too. Academic and athletic scholarships are not the same, but neither are compensation for services rendered (The IRS specifically says any monetary compensation for services rendered has to be included as income.) They are considered charitable gifts with conditions. The conditions are just different for the different kind of scholarship gift. And academic requires a higher academic standard than an athletic one but and athletic scholarship has an academic and athletic component.
ReadR00ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2014, 07:17 PM   #10
Copperhead
Fight, Win, Kick Ass
 
Copperhead's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Saltwaterinmyveins, S.C.
Posts: 588
CockyCash: 1110
Copperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talonsCopperhead has developed his gaff and talons
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MTA3 View Post
Good. College athletes deserve representation as primary players in the BIG BUSINESS of college sports.
I personally believe they are already compensated by way of not having to pay student loans and are trained by great coaches for the potential riches of the NFL for free. I would not be bothered by athletes receiving an amount equal to what an average part time job would pay them, seeing as they do not have time that other students may for a few extra $
__________________

Gotta love it
Copperhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2014, 07:44 PM   #11
peterlemon
Game MVP
 
peterlemon's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 1,903
CockyCash: 500
peterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPitpeterlemon rules the CockPit
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
I personally believe they are already compensated by way of not having to pay student loans and are trained by great coaches for the potential riches of the NFL for free. I would not be bothered by athletes receiving an amount equal to what an average part time job would pay them, seeing as they do not have time that other students may for a few extra $
I agree with that, but these guys are not the victims they are being made out to be. They actually have a great deal going, most of these guys will never sniff the NFL.
peterlemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 04:30 PM   #12
catdaddy66
Former Walk On in-law
 
catdaddy66's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lugoff, SC
Posts: 6,244
CockyCash: 250018
catdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot materialcatdaddy66 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by uscgmck View Post
Details coming

Just a one member vote. Now will go to whole NLRB Board.

NW president said if player are employees football at NW probably done.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...n-bid-unionize

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/0...l-agency-says/
Dang it!! You beat me to it...
__________________
catdaddy66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 04:38 PM   #13
803scdantes
2nd Team All-SEC
 
803scdantes's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast Columbia
Posts: 2,700
CockyCash: 200
803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material803scdantes is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

College sports got too greedy in terms of television deals, stadiums expansions, coaching salaries, etc. and now the players want a piece of the action. I can't say I have a problem with it, but I believe this will alter college sports as we know them.
__________________
34-17; 29-7; 34-13; 27-17; 31-17
803scdantes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 04:49 PM   #14
USCBatgirl21
Official Baseball Chick
 
USCBatgirl21's Avatar
 
Female

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sec 4, Row 1, Seat 16 - Carolina Stadium
Posts: 10,019
CockyCash: 1000500
USCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot materialUSCBatgirl21 is USC mascot material
Send a message via MSN to USCBatgirl21
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Alter is putting it mildly. It will destroy college athletics.
And that's even before you take all the Title IX regulations into account.
USCBatgirl21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:27 PM   #15
3MTA3
Game MVP
 
3MTA3's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SEC Country
Posts: 1,505
CockyCash: 500
3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material3MTA3 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by USCBatgirl21 View Post
Alter is putting it mildly. It will destroy college athletics.

And that's even before you take all the Title IX regulations into account.

That is your opinion, but it is only that.

People assumed the end of amateurism would destroy the Olympics, too.

Whoops.
3MTA3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 04:54 PM   #16
CockyCody
Blue Chip
 
CockyCody's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: North Augusta
Posts: 564
CockyCash: 50
CockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talonsCockyCody has developed his gaff and talons
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Well, I always thought that Northwestern football was in the crapper anyway.
CockyCody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:04 PM   #17
ReadR00ster
Banned
 
ReadR00ster's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 9,864
CockyCash: 1220
ReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by CockyCody View Post
Well, I always thought that Northwestern football was in the crapper anyway.
They have a team and fans and make a bowl game every year. I don't know what their spread sheet says, but not all schools make money on the sport. If you want to treat schools like regular businesses than these "businesses" are going to have to make cutbacks in order to pay their "employees" If someone makes them pay the players than they can't afford to pay than the business folds. Bad day for all except the greedy few college athletes while all the rest will suffer. I makes we wonder. Will this union demand they pay the players if a lot of schools would rather just be done with the sport?
ReadR00ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:22 PM   #18
ccured
2nd Team All-American
 
ccured's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: columbia sc
Posts: 8,995
CockyCash: 4058916
ccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot materialccured is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

The universities and conferences are too strong they will lobby and the common legal definition of employee will be amended to not include student athletes. The NFL and NBA will back the schools because they don't want to spend the money on a minor league.

Also if scholarships are compensation how are they going to pay taxes on the income? So say a player gets a scholarship of 40k a year and makes 10k salary. Taxes at 20% will be the entire 10k in liquid salary. Now you are back to having no money.

There are many implications but it is way to early to really mean anything. This vote gave 1 private university the right to organize. No bearing on public universities. Nothing saying they had to unionize. If they are employees do they have access to pension plans? Any union in place will side with the school because it can't afford to lose a piece of a dwindling pension
ccured is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 05:58 PM   #19
JohnnyB21
Two Deep
 
JohnnyB21's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pelion, SC
Posts: 1,099
CockyCash: 1021420
JohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot materialJohnnyB21 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccured View Post
The universities and conferences are too strong they will lobby and the common legal definition of employee will be amended to not include student athletes. The NFL and NBA will back the schools because they don't want to spend the money on a minor league.

Also if scholarships are compensation how are they going to pay taxes on the income? So say a player gets a scholarship of 40k a year and makes 10k salary. Taxes at 20% will be the entire 10k in liquid salary. Now you are back to having no money.

There are many implications but it is way to early to really mean anything. This vote gave 1 private university the right to organize. No bearing on public universities. Nothing saying they had to unionize. If they are employees do they have access to pension plans? Any union in place will side with the school because it can't afford to lose a piece of a dwindling pension
20% would be 8k. 25% would be 10k.
__________________

34-17 29-7 34-13 27-17 31-17

Coming for #6 next season!!!

154-71 in past 5 seasons against Clemson.
JohnnyB21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 06:14 PM   #20
johnnyb
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
johnnyb's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: He's Everywhere!
Posts: 21,796
CockyCash: 1715674460
johnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot materialjohnnyb is USC mascot material
Default Re: Fox News Just Reported CFB UNIONS OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB21 View Post
20% would be 8k. 25% would be 10k.
20% of a total of 50k (40k scholarship and 10k cash/paycheck) would be 10k, taking the entire "paycheck" portion, putting them back in the same boat they are in now. at least thats what I think he was getting at
__________________



To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
johnnyb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Provided by SLB Development