Shaw or Thompson

[gripitandripit2007]

Originally Posted by KaneisAble

Exactly. And once good teams negate his running and he himself negates his passing, we lose.

So you think we would have beaten any of those teams with Dylan going by what he has done against the worse D's we have played this year?

[klempsux]

Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007

So you think we would have beaten any of those teams with Dylan going by what he has done against the worse D's we have played this year?

These are your words from the last time we went through a QB not throwing well. Whats changed, other than the fact your preferred guy is now having the problems?

I agree with what you are saying...if we are winning...i don't care what they do...i don't care if they don't throw at all...but that is not likely. If Garcia continues to play like he did last weekend...SEC defenses will stack the box and eventually stop Latti. Latti is a BEAST of a RB...but i don't care if Barry Sanders and Erick Dickerson was back there together...if you don't have a passing game to sell the run...defenses will stack up for it and make it virtually impossible to run. We have to stretch the field better and open up the run with the pass or SEC defenses are going to start hitting Latti as soon as he gets the ball. Navy has a great offense...not a great defense...and I know it took us a while to get the offense off the field in the first half...but we have got to put up more than 24 against a D like that. It just worries me going in to the heart of SEC play with an inconsistant QB and in my opinion..if it continues...someone else needs to give it a try

[gripitandripit2007]

Originally Posted by klempsux

These are your words from the last time we went through a QB not throwing well. Whats changed, other than the fact your preferred guy is now having the problems?

I agree with what you are saying...if we are winning...i don't care what they do...i don't care if they don't throw at all...but that is not likely. If Garcia continues to play like he did last weekend...SEC defenses will stack the box and eventually stop Latti. Latti is a BEAST of a RB...but i don't care if Barry Sanders and Erick Dickerson was back there together...if you don't have a passing game to sell the run...defenses will stack up for it and make it virtually impossible to run. We have to stretch the field better and open up the run with the pass or SEC defenses are going to start hitting Latti as soon as he gets the ball. Navy has a great offense...not a great defense...and I know it took us a while to get the offense off the field in the first half...but we have got to put up more than 24 against a D like that. It just worries me going in to the heart of SEC play with an inconsistant QB and in my opinion..if it continues...someone else needs to give it a try

I don't understand your point in sending this but if you think this is our problem right now you are sadly mistaken. The simple fact is defense wins games more than offenses do. Against good D's a good QB is gonna struggle most of the time. Connor has, Johnny Football has, Murray, Bray, Boyd, name any QB you want & I will show you where they struggle against a good defense. Against bad D's Connor has done better than Dylan. Connor has been injured for most of the year but has still played better than Dylan overall and that's with playing against better D's! FACT!

I have still yet to read where anyone has shown me any facts that Dylan should start over Connor. Connor has led us to the best season we have ever had & is in the midst of doing it again. He is a proven winner. I like Dylan & am VERY happy he led a win against our rival but the fact still remains...Connor has proven more!

[KaneisAble]

Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007

So you think we would have beaten any of those teams with Dylan going by what he has done against the worse D's we have played this year?

I think we would've beaten LSU, yes. Hard to say what Thompson would have done if he had played the entire Florida game and had a full week to prepare.

But forget speculating on what Thompson "would've done"; I'm talking about what Shaw actually did and does. You really don't see a fundamental difference in the way the offense operates w/ DT in the game vs. Shaw?

[KaneisAble]

Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007

Against bad D's Connor has done better than Dylan. Connor has been injured for most of the year but has still played better than Dylan overall and that's with playing against better D's! FACT!

How is that "fact"? What is your sample size, specifically, where both played against the same Defenses?

"Against bad Ds Connor has done better than Dylan." What teams are you specifically talking about? Please explain to me how your SPECIFICALLY arriving at your conclusion; teams, stats, etc.

[Garnet girl]

BOTH, please.

[pantera17]

Wow gripitandripit is getting destroyed on this. Lol. Honestly it looks like he is letting his fan(ism) of shaw could his vision on this. If you go into this unbiased then the answer is very clear who is better.

[SpecOps Cock]

Originally Posted by pantera17

Wow gripitandripit is getting destroyed on this. Lol. Honestly it looks like he is letting his fan(ism) of shaw could his vision on this. If you go into this unbiased then the answer is very clear who is better.

yep

[2four2Gamecock]

Originally Posted by pantera17

Wow gripitandripit is getting destroyed on this. Lol. Honestly it looks like he is letting his fan(ism) of shaw could his vision on this. If you go into this unbiased then the answer is very clear who is better.

HBC is as unbiased as it gets. He and the staff get paid to win. He sees them both in practice. He watches all the film. He starts Shaw. He starts Shaw injured so I don't think it is even very close.

Shaw was too injured to go against Clemson. It got to the threshold and HBC make the correct call and started DT. We won. Great coach! Very good QB to come in off the bench. We need that. We have that.

He didn't blow up. He wasn't amazing. He played well and did what he had to do to win. I really don't think anything has changed. Conner will heal up, practice and start the Bowl game.

[gripitandripit2007]

Originally Posted by KaneisAble

How is that "fact"? What is your sample size, specifically, where both played against the same Defenses?

"Against bad Ds Connor has done better than Dylan." What teams are you specifically talking about? Please explain to me how your SPECIFICALLY arriving at your conclusion; teams, stats, etc.

To respond to both of your comments...yes...I do see a difference in how the team responds to Dylan vs Connor...Connor has more yards against an opponent and more TDs against an opponent...again...in his career...Connor has prove more!

Connors threw for 356 against Tenn...best Dylan has done is 330 against ECU
Connor threw for 4 TDs in one game against Kentucky...Dylan has 3
Connor has thrown for 95% against Mizzou...Dylan's best is 56%

Any other numbers you want to SPECIFICALLY arrive on how he has PROVEN to be better? Hahahah

[gripitandripit2007]

Originally Posted by pantera17

Wow gripitandripit is getting destroyed on this. Lol. Honestly it looks like he is letting his fan(ism) of shaw could his vision on this. If you go into this unbiased then the answer is very clear who is better.

Are u sure you aren't a tater fan? Because you sure do sound like one!

Again...i have FACTS showing who is better...still haven't saw any FACTS showing Dylan is better. And WHO is biased again?

[gripitandripit2007]

Originally Posted by 2four2Gamecock

HBC is as unbiased as it gets. He and the staff get paid to win. He sees them both in practice. He watches all the film. He starts Shaw. He starts Shaw injured so I don't think it is even very close.

Shaw was too injured to go against Clemson. It got to the threshold and HBC make the correct call and started DT. We won. Great coach! Very good QB to come in off the bench. We need that. We have that.

He didn't blow up. He wasn't amazing. He played well and did what he had to do to win. I really don't think anything has changed. Conner will heal up, practice and start the Bowl game.

EXACTLY!!!!!

I am as unbiased and as real as they come. As I have said in other threads I think Connor Mitch will prove to be the better out of all of them. Would a biased Shaw homer say that? I don't think so.

Like you are saying 2 for 2....if Dylan was the better QB SOS would start him. Plain and simple! I support whoever gives us a better chance to win...but Connor has proven that against better defenses in his career. FACT!

[2four2Gamecock]

You can do several different comparions but here is one against the same team

Clemson 2011: 14-20 210 yards 3 td's 0 pick, 19 carries 107 yards 1td
Clemson 2012: 23-41 310 yards 3 td's 1 pick, 14 carries 38 yards 0 td

I'm a fan of who will lead us to victory. If it is even, go with Shaw, he has the experience. I don't see any evidence that DT is better than Shaw.

Also, anyone saying we beat LSU with DT at QB is mistaken. I was at the game. They were all up in our backfield all night. DT probably would have gotten injured against LSU.

Also, if DT was "Very clearly" better than Shaw, he would have led some sort of comeback against Fla. We all saw what happened. It wasn't pretty.

[CarolinaBoy407]

I think Shaw's record alone (and especially in comparison to our overall history) warrants him starting. Yes, Dylan threw a great game at Clemson. But given their defense, I think a child could have carved up Clemson's secondary just as well.

[Take-a-Knee]

If you want to recruit top WR talent who would you play ?
Love Connor but I wish we could get more PT for Dylan too ...

[KaneisAble]

Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007

To respond to both of your comments...yes...I do see a difference in how the team responds to Dylan vs Connor...Connor has more yards against an opponent and more TDs against an opponent...again...in his career...Connor has prove more!

Connors threw for 356 against Tenn...best Dylan has done is 330 against ECU
Connor threw for 4 TDs in one game against Kentucky...Dylan has 3
Connor has thrown for 95% against Mizzou...Dylan's best is 56%

Any other numbers you want to SPECIFICALLY arrive on how he has PROVEN to be better? Hahahah

Connor has a much greater sample size to draw from, but this is at least an attempt by you to back up your point w/ numbers rather than just "CONNOR IS THE BEST FACT TRUE STORY PERIOD" which is all I was asking for.

Here's what I see from Connor: a quarterback who repeatedly has demonstrated a tendency to hold on to the ball too long, not cycle through his receivers, not check down, looks to run if first option isn't 110% open. And SEC coaches (the best in the country) have seen that as well, and gameplanned accordingly. Double cover Ace or Bruce, pressure Shaw from the blind side, let him scramble right into the arms of a linebacker or DE. This season, whether due to injury or talent or a combination of both, has seen Shaw regress from the strides he made in 2011. He also has shown a crippling tentativeness when making a mistake early, i.e. an INT or fumble, to not throw the ball moving forward and thus stagnating the offense as a whole. (See: ECU last year, Florida this year, Vandy, etc.) W/ Shaw, the passing game is 3rd priority behind QB run and RB run, and it's a one-dimensional priority because he won't trust the offense or WRs to get open, he'll only throw if they ARE open. As a result WRs get frustrated, don't run routes effectively, and the cycle of offensive ineffectiveness continues.

Thompson is physically taller and thus can see the offensive plays develop downfield better than Shaw. He's more decisive w/ his throws, spreads the ball around to 2nd, 3rd, even 4th options (see: the return of Nick Jones vs. Clemson) and thus actually utilizes the weapons at his disposal. It keeps defenses more honest and opens up the run game significantly because they have to respect that the ball may actually be thrown downfield. Also, (purely based on Twitter and what I'm admittedly surmising from just watching the game itself), the players themselves seem to be more excited when Thompson is in the game.

I do not want to discount the great, hardworking play of Connor. I respect and appreciate what he's been able to do, and would love nothing more than to see him be able to return to 2011 form. I also understand that he was injured early in the season and has gutted it out, and said injury may be effecting the very elements I'm decrying. But I've been Team Thompson since ECU and am not afraid to admit it.

[gripitandripit2007]

Originally Posted by KaneisAble

Connor has a much greater sample size to draw from, but this is at least an attempt by you to back up your point w/ numbers rather than just "CONNOR IS THE BEST FACT TRUE STORY PERIOD" which is all I was asking for.

Here's what I see from Connor: a quarterback who repeatedly has demonstrated a tendency to hold on to the ball too long, not cycle through his receivers, not check down, looks to run if first option isn't 110% open. And SEC coaches (the best in the country) have seen that as well, and gameplanned accordingly. Double cover Ace or Bruce, pressure Shaw from the blind side, let him scramble right into the arms of a linebacker or DE. This season, whether due to injury or talent or a combination of both, has seen Shaw regress from the strides he made in 2011. He also has shown a crippling tentativeness when making a mistake early, i.e. an INT or fumble, to not throw the ball moving forward and thus stagnating the offense as a whole. (See: ECU last year, Florida this year, Vandy, etc.) W/ Shaw, the passing game is 3rd priority behind QB run and RB run, and it's a one-dimensional priority because he won't trust the offense or WRs to get open, he'll only throw if they ARE open. As a result WRs get frustrated, don't run routes effectively, and the cycle of offensive ineffectiveness continues.

Thompson is physically taller and thus can see the offensive plays develop downfield better than Shaw. He's more decisive w/ his throws, spreads the ball around to 2nd, 3rd, even 4th options (see: the return of Nick Jones vs. Clemson) and thus actually utilizes the weapons at his disposal. It keeps defenses more honest and opens up the run game significantly because they have to respect that the ball may actually be thrown downfield. Also, (purely based on Twitter and what I'm admittedly surmising from just watching the game itself), the players themselves seem to be more excited when Thompson is in the game.

I do not want to discount the great, hardworking play of Connor. I respect and appreciate what he's been able to do, and would love nothing more than to see him be able to return to 2011 form. I also understand that he was injured early in the season and has gutted it out, and said injury may be effecting the very elements I'm decrying. But I've been Team Thompson since ECU and am not afraid to admit it.

I respect your opinion but the simple fact is Connor has not "regressed from strides in 2011"...he has a very similar TD to Int ratio...he has a higher comp percentage...and he has a higher YPA also. (Not to mention total
Yards but that is a given bc he played more) but the regression you may be referring to is he has been hurt most of the year so he hasn't been as affective running the ball. But again...he sits at 15th in the country in QB rating compared to 24th last year so if anything...his passing has PROgressed.

But I honestly think the problem with people being "team Thompson" is this...I think the expectations of Connor and the expectations coming in to this year has affected how people look at Connor. We didn't win the EAst this year & lost two very important games on the road where Connor didn't play well & a lot of our fans fault him for the loss when it was very clear it was not all his fault. Also...the teams that Dylan has played is nothing to the D's Connor has face and Connor still has better numbers that PROVE he is still the better QB!

Lastly...Connor needs to get rid of it quicker...we all agree with that...but I would rather him hold it longer and make sure it's there than just throw it up. Take a look at his comp percentage...it isunheard of...and I think that is a result from him hanging on to it to make sure it was there first! I don't know about anyone else...but Connor is a QB that I finally don't hold my brEathe every time he lets go of it and that is a good thing!

[Jubjub Bird]

Originally Posted by KaneisAble

Connor has a much greater sample size to draw from, but this is at least an attempt by you to back up your point w/ numbers rather than just "CONNOR IS THE BEST FACT TRUE STORY PERIOD" which is all I was asking for.

Here's what I see from Connor: a quarterback who repeatedly has demonstrated a tendency to hold on to the ball too long, not cycle through his receivers, not check down, looks to run if first option isn't 110% open. And SEC coaches (the best in the country) have seen that as well, and gameplanned accordingly. Double cover Ace or Bruce, pressure Shaw from the blind side, let him scramble right into the arms of a linebacker or DE. This season, whether due to injury or talent or a combination of both, has seen Shaw regress from the strides he made in 2011. He also has shown a crippling tentativeness when making a mistake early, i.e. an INT or fumble, to not throw the ball moving forward and thus stagnating the offense as a whole. (See: ECU last year, Florida this year, Vandy, etc.) W/ Shaw, the passing game is 3rd priority behind QB run and RB run, and it's a one-dimensional priority because he won't trust the offense or WRs to get open, he'll only throw if they ARE open. As a result WRs get frustrated, don't run routes effectively, and the cycle of offensive ineffectiveness continues.

Thompson is physically taller and thus can see the offensive plays develop downfield better than Shaw. He's more decisive w/ his throws, spreads the ball around to 2nd, 3rd, even 4th options (see: the return of Nick Jones vs. Clemson) and thus actually utilizes the weapons at his disposal. It keeps defenses more honest and opens up the run game significantly because they have to respect that the ball may actually be thrown downfield. Also, (purely based on Twitter and what I'm admittedly surmising from just watching the game itself), the players themselves seem to be more excited when Thompson is in the game.

I do not want to discount the great, hardworking play of Connor. I respect and appreciate what he's been able to do, and would love nothing more than to see him be able to return to 2011 form. I also understand that he was injured early in the season and has gutted it out, and said injury may be effecting the very elements I'm decrying. But I've been Team Thompson since ECU and am not afraid to admit it.

Nice post. You articulated exactly what I've been thinking but better than I would have done it.

[KaneisAble]

Originally Posted by CarolinaBoy407

I think Shaw's record alone (and especially in comparison to our overall history) warrants him starting. Yes, Dylan threw a great game at Clemson. But given their defense, I think a child could have carved up Clemson's secondary just as well.

Wow. And Shaw-supporters get mad because he doesn't "get enough credit".

[KaneisAble]

Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007

But again...he sits at 15th in the country in QB rating compared to 24th last year so if anything...his passing has PROgressed.

Anyone who thinks Connor Shaw Passing Quarterback has progressed this season is either not actually watching the games or is so far gone in Shaw-ism to not see what's abundantly evident. Connor had a great statistical game against Missouri and while he deserves total credit for it, that's skewing his numbers in a BIG way.

Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007

But I honestly think the problem with people being "team Thompson" is this...I think the expectations of Connor and the expectations coming in to this year has affected how people look at Connor. We didn't win the EAst this year & lost two very important games on the road where Connor didn't play well & a lot of our fans fault him for the loss when it was very clear it was not all his fault. Also...the teams that Dylan has played is nothing to the D's Connor has face and Connor still has better numbers that PROVE he is still the better QB!

What defenses did Connor do so well against? Missouri? He didn't play well at all against Florida or LSU. The only top tier D he excelled against was Georgia. (And please don't cite Tennessee. Their Defense is horrific.) I absolutely fault his play as one of the primary reasons we lost the LSU game. His inability to throw the ball made it incredibly easy for the LSU D-Line to set up shop in our backfield. They knew he wasn't going to throw and rushed accordingly. And his INT cost us the game, period.

Seriously: what fault, (if any), do you find w/ Connor's play? By the way you've slobbered all over him in this forum you'd think he was heading to NY for the Heisman ceremony. I'm not claiming Thompson is a Heisman candidate, but I like seeing Wide Receivers involved in the game.

Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007

Lastly...Connor needs to get rid of it quicker...we all agree with that...but I would rather him hold it longer and make sure it's there than just throw it up. Take a look at his comp percentage...it isunheard of...and I think that is a result from him hanging on to it to make sure it was there first! I don't know about anyone else...but Connor is a QB that I finally don't hold my brEathe every time he lets go of it and that is a good thing!

Where did I suggest he just "throw it up"? I want him to THROW IT. At all. You keep citing "completion percentage", and while it's crucial for a QB to take care of the ball, do you understand that being TOO hesitant can have a negative effect?