Dylan Thompson To Play

[SimpleGamecock]

Originally Posted by Dizzy01

It seems for some that the only measure of success for a QB is yardage. This is why you see so much effort into discounting completion percentage, QB ratings and defensive ratings.

To me it is not about the yards a QB throws that measures his success but how successful he is at utilizing his receiving options around him. Again I am not trying to bash Connor as some have suggested it is merely to discuss the different styles of the QBs. I feel that in order to for us to get over the hump we have to get the ball to our receivers more consistently. For instance in the Mizzou game we only got it to them 6 times. As amazing as the performance was in terms of ball control and acurracy I am not sure if we can get over the top tier teams throwing screen passes the whole time, we will need to stretch the field. That is why I said IMO UT and Arkansas were his two best games he had this year. In those 2 games Connor looked like a QB that was going to sit back in the pocket and get it out to multiple receiveing targets. He played with confidence and the williginess to throw the ball all over the field. He utilized his different progressions and took on the challenge Spurrier has been setting for him about not taking off running if his first option is not there.

With that in mind it becomes a style preference and that is what I was suggesting. I would like to see the offense open up and utilize all the talent we have on the offense side of the field.

[Dizzy01]

Originally Posted by SimpleGamecock

To me it is not about the yards a QB throws that measures his success but how successful he is at utilizing his receiving options around him. Again I am not trying to bash Connor as some have suggested it is merely to discuss the different styles of the QBs. I feel that in order to for us to get over the hump we have to get the ball to our receivers more consistently. For instance in the Mizzou game we only got it to them 6 times. As amazing as the performance was in terms of ball control and acurracy I am not sure if we can get over the top tier teams throwing screen passes the whole time, we will need to stretch the field. That is why I said IMO UT and Arkansas were his two best games he had this year. In those 2 games Connor looked like a QB that was going to sit back in the pocket and get it out to multiple receiveing targets. He played with confidence and the williginess to throw the ball all over the field. He utilized his different progressions and took on the challenge Spurrier has been setting for him about not taking off running if his first option is not there.

With that in mind it becomes a style preference and that is what I was suggesting. I would like to see the offense open up and utilize all the talent we have on the offense side of the field.

Spurrier also said one the things he likes about Shaw is the fact he doesn't throw the ball into danger. Spurrier tends to change with the wind when it comes to his QBs.

The problem with your references in style especially with Stafford and Cutler is they do attempt to force balls to their receivers but what does it get them? Megatron just set the NFL receiving record but what's the Lions record? Marshall is having a big year with Cutler but what's the Bears overall record and how is Cutler doing in terms on completion percentage and QBR?

It's not about forcing the balls into your receivers hands but how often you find the open receiver and let them make the play. Look at Drew Brees and see how many "dump passes" he has to his RBs and TEs. Colston, Moore and Henderson are compliments to Sproles and Graham in that offense. Brady is in the same mold hitting RBs and TEs to loosen the defense and then the WR becomes more of a weapon. His favorite WR target rarely is targeted more than 5 yards out but he creates space for them by spreading the ball around.

I'm not saying Shaw is Brees or Brady but the style they play in attempting to protect the ball and spreading it around is more successful than trying to force it to guys just to say you threw it downfield.

[SimpleGamecock]

Originally Posted by Dizzy01

Spurrier also said one the things he likes about Shaw is the fact he doesn't throw the ball into danger. Spurrier tends to change with the wind when it comes to his QBs.

The problem with your references in style especially with Stafford and Cutler is they do attempt to force balls to their receivers but what does it get them? Megatron just set the NFL receiving record but what's the Lions record? Marshall is having a big year with Cutler but what's the Bears overall record and how is Cutler doing in terms on completion percentage and QBR?

It's not about forcing the balls into your receivers hands but how often you find the open receiver and let them make the play. Look at Drew Brees and see how many "dump passes" he has to his RBs and TEs. Colston, Moore and Henderson are compliments to Sproles and Graham in that offense. Brady is in the same mold hitting RBs and TEs to loosen the defense and then the WR becomes more of a weapon. His favorite WR target rarely is targeted more than 5 yards out but he creates space for them by spreading the ball around.

I'm not saying Shaw is Brees or Brady but the style they play in attempting to protect the ball and spreading it around is more successful than trying to force it to guys just to say you threw it downfield.

Agreed I am not for forcing balls either and I didn't mention Cutler or Stafford I think Cutler is overrated. Yes, Brady and Brees do dump the ball a lot and I know what you mean but the reason they are open is because defenses have to play those 2 honest. They are not crowding the line of scrimmage because of the fear of the big play at any minute. Also what you will notice about those 2 they are not "mobile" quarterbacks so they stay in the pocket and get the ball into the hands of the playmakers whether it is a dump pass or a 20+ yard strike.

[ZenUSC]

Originally Posted by yazoo

I've seen Shaw make the same pass several times. You are wrong about Shaw's arm.

Shawn may be the better overall package at QB when compared to DT at this poiint but DT clearly has the stronger arm without question.

[Dizzy01]

Originally Posted by SimpleGamecock

Agreed I am not for forcing balls either and I didn't mention Cutler or Stafford I think Cutler is overrated. Yes, Brady and Brees do dump the ball a lot and I know what you mean but the reason they are open is because defenses have to play those 2 honest. They are not crowding the line of scrimmage because of the fear of the big play at any minute. Also what you will notice about those 2 they are not "mobile" quarterbacks so they stay in the pocket and get the ball into the hands of the playmakers whether it is a dump pass or a 20+ yard strike.

Oops. My bad. I saw the Cutler/Stafford reference in another post.

[me4USC]

Originally Posted by snoopcockycock

great point! this is the thing, so many on here are forgetting all of the great throws he made during the 2011 season, like that one to bruce, the one to jones, etc... because they continually discount the fact that he has played with a fractured scapula all season long.
...and what about the laser to cunningham at the beginning of the season, the one where he got blasted but still hung onto the ball, cover 2? and he did that after the injury!!!

This is actually one of my problems with Shaw. He CHOSE to play with a fractured scapula instead of sitting out until he healed. He CHOSE to play with an ankle injury against Wofford rather than letting Thompson have that game. Shaw himself set up this controversy. Had he admitted to Spurrier that he was in pain and sat out Wofford, Thompson would have won that game, but everyone would have expected that. Thompson wouldn't have received national attention for beating Wofford. Instead, Shaw insisting on playing, injured himself further, and had to sit out Clemson instead. Thompson played Clemson, only his second career start - on the road in a hostile environment - and showed everyone what he could do. Spurrier actually said that Shaw could have played Clemson, but he chose to give the game to Dylan. I think it's possible that Spurrier was teaching Shaw a lesson. Think of what's best for the team. Insisting on playing injured doesn't show heroism to me. It shows a disregard for what's best for the team.

[Dizzy01]

Originally Posted by me4USC

This is actually one of my problems with Shaw. He CHOSE to play with a fractured scapula instead of sitting out until he healed. He CHOSE to play with an ankle injury against Wofford rather than letting Thompson have that game. Shaw himself set up this controversy. Had he admitted to Spurrier that he was in pain and sat out Wofford, Thompson would have won that game, but everyone would have expected that. Thompson wouldn't have received national attention for beating Wofford. Instead, Shaw insisting on playing, injured himself further, and had to sit out Clemson instead. Thompson played Clemson, only his second career start - on the road in a hostile environment - and showed everyone what he could do. Spurrier actually said that Shaw could have played Clemson, but he chose to give the game to Dylan. I think it's possible that Spurrier was teaching Shaw a lesson. Think of what's best for the team. Insisting on playing injured doesn't show heroism to me. It shows a disregard for what's best for the team.

I had no idea Shaw made the lineup decisions.

[me4USC]

Originally Posted by Dizzy01

I had no idea Shaw made the lineup decisions.

Spurrier said on several occasions that he asked Connor if he was hurting, and he said he wasn't. We all saw him limping through the games, obviously in pain, not as effective as he usually is. Someone at the practices said he kept asking to play all week after ECU. I do understand why. He loves to play, and he's the starter. He considers it to be his team. I'm not hating on him. He's a kid.

I also know that Clowney said his foot hurt, and he sat out.

Sometimes the doctors say that further injury is not probable, and that if the athlete can take the pain, they can play. That's when it's up to the athlete to tell the coach he's in pain, especially when he's asked.

[trapper82]

Originally Posted by me4USC

This is actually one of my problems with Shaw. He CHOSE to play with a fractured scapula instead of sitting out until he healed. He CHOSE to play with an ankle injury against Wofford rather than letting Thompson have that game. Shaw himself set up this controversy. Had he admitted to Spurrier that he was in pain and sat out Wofford, Thompson would have won that game, but everyone would have expected that. Thompson wouldn't have received national attention for beating Wofford. Instead, Shaw insisting on playing, injured himself further, and had to sit out Clemson instead. Thompson played Clemson, only his second career start - on the road in a hostile environment - and showed everyone what he could do. Spurrier actually said that Shaw could have played Clemson, but he chose to give the game to Dylan. I think it's possible that Spurrier was teaching Shaw a lesson. Think of what's best for the team. Insisting on playing injured doesn't show heroism to me. It shows a disregard for what's best for the team.

Shaw just does his best, not up to him to decide if someone else on the team can play better. That's the coaches job, and this commentary on Dylan begins to border on doubting the coaches we have instead of a simple discussion of our qb situation. We have 2 good ones, they will play based on the coaches decisions and we should just call that a day and wish for the best in the bowl game.

[me4USC]

Originally Posted by trapper82

Shaw just does his best, not up to him to decide if someone else on the team can play better. That's the coaches job, and this commentary on Dylan begins to border on doubting the coaches we have instead of a simple discussion of our qb situation. We have 2 good ones, they will play based on the coaches decisions and we should just call that a day and wish for the best in the bowl game.

I'm not doubting the coaches at all. If I came across that way, I didn't intend to. Spurrier et al have done a great job.

We will win the bowl game with either qb or both.

[carolinacoast]

Originally Posted by me4USC

This is actually one of my problems with Shaw. He CHOSE to play with a fractured scapula instead of sitting out until he healed. He CHOSE to play with an ankle injury against Wofford rather than letting Thompson have that game. Shaw himself set up this controversy. Had he admitted to Spurrier that he was in pain and sat out Wofford, Thompson would have won that game, but everyone would have expected that. Thompson wouldn't have received national attention for beating Wofford. Instead, Shaw insisting on playing, injured himself further, and had to sit out Clemson instead. Thompson played Clemson, only his second career start - on the road in a hostile environment - and showed everyone what he could do. Spurrier actually said that Shaw could have played Clemson, but he chose to give the game to Dylan. I think it's possible that Spurrier was teaching Shaw a lesson. Think of what's best for the team. Insisting on playing injured doesn't show heroism to me. It shows a disregard for what's best for the team.

Some of the greatest athletic moments in history have occurred with injured athletes doing it for the team by playing injured. Shaw has what a lot of people don't have... grit and determination, which is why he is a winner. I am not saying coaches should let players play injured, only that those types of players don't quit, and will do anything to help the team, even to the point of denying their pain.

[Cocky2001]

Originally Posted by me4USC

This is actually one of my problems with Shaw. He CHOSE to play with a fractured scapula instead of sitting out until he healed. He CHOSE to play with an ankle injury against Wofford rather than letting Thompson have that game. Shaw himself set up this controversy. Had he admitted to Spurrier that he was in pain and sat out Wofford, Thompson would have won that game, but everyone would have expected that. Thompson wouldn't have received national attention for beating Wofford. Instead, Shaw insisting on playing, injured himself further, and had to sit out Clemson instead. Thompson played Clemson, only his second career start - on the road in a hostile environment - and showed everyone what he could do. Spurrier actually said that Shaw could have played Clemson, but he chose to give the game to Dylan. I think it's possible that Spurrier was teaching Shaw a lesson. Think of what's best for the team. Insisting on playing injured doesn't show heroism to me. It shows a disregard for what's best for the team.

I actually don't have any problems with Shaw here. Any player worth his salt wants to be in there no matter what is going on...period. This is where the coaches and the medical staff come in. I can be critical of Shaw from time to time, but I have never said anything bad about his grit, his determination, his desire to win. If you are a starter and you don't think that you are better, injured, than the guy behind you...and you don't want to be in there, then you really shouldn't be starting. Shaw may only weigh 200-something but he has 300 pounds of fight in him. I do wish that he would channel some of that into going through his progressions, finding the open receivers (or at least looking for them) before taking off with the ball...and I could go on...I just wish he would develop his game as QB instead of playing the position like a running back first. But at no time have I ever questioned the fight in this guy.

Regarding the part I bolded in your post, I think that SOS was teaching him a lesson, but not regarding the injury...I think he was teaching him a lesson that your backup can win this game utilizing the others on the field...and that he should start doing that too...esp. if he wants to keep that position next season.

[me4USC]

Originally Posted by carolinacoast

Some of the greatest athletic moments in history have occurred with injured athletes doing it for the team by playing injured. Shaw has what a lot of people don't have... grit and determination, which is why he is a winner. I am not saying coaches should let players play injured, only that those types of players don't quit, and will do anything to help the team, even to the point of denying their pain.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I do want to point out that I was referencing Wofford - a team that we could beat with the backup. Shaw did not need to play injured in that game. It was not the same situation that we had with Vandy.

Clowney didn't play against Wofford. I think he has grit and determination. He saved himself for Clemson.

Again, I'm not against Shaw. I just think he made a bad choice in that instance.

[carolinacoast]

Originally Posted by me4USC

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I do want to point out that I was referencing Wofford - a team that we could beat with the backup. Shaw did not need to play injured in that game. It was not the same situation that we had with Vandy.

Clowney didn't play against Wofford. I think he has grit and determination. He saved himself for Clemson.

Again, I'm not against Shaw. I just think he made a bad choice in that instance.

I am not really disagreeing with you either, just pointing out the mindset of some of players like Shaw. I think he should have stayed out of the Wofford game, but players like Shaw are warriors who don't think that way. However, I do think Clowney has a lot more to lose by playing injured, not that Clowney isn't a warrior himself. I think the coaches and Clowney saw what happened to Shaw.

[yazoo]

Originally Posted by pantera17

I wouldnt call that pass drilling. Ball had a lot of air under it. But I get yer point.

That pass to Alshon was a rope. The 49 yard bomb to Bruce had a little air, but it wasn't floating down range by any means.

[Loathor]

Originally Posted by CoverTwo

When has he threaded a 28 yard square in between 3 defenders? Or drilled a deep post between 2 defenders?

I usually prefer my QB not to throw into double and triple coverage... but that's just me, I guess.

[Loathor]

Originally Posted by pantera17

I couldn't disagree more. His two best games of his career are ut and aeky. ut was his first shoot out. Where he out gunned tyler bray. He actually made some great throws. Some DT type throws.

in thr uga game he only threw 10 passes. And completed 6. But he threw two ints that were snatched outta their guys hands. They were badly thrown passrs. In thr mizzu game hr played ojay. Did what he was told. But most of his passes were short dump offs. Nothing really impressive.

The quailty of passes he made aganst ut and arky were a lot higher then the short throes he made aganst uga and mizzou.

So Georgia was a bad game for Shaw because he completed 60 percent of his passes (33 percent of those completions went for Tds) for 162 yards (with another 78 yards on the ground and another TD) and had two passes, into single coverage, that were won by the receiver, but no interceptions... While Clemson is a good game for Thompson when he had a worse completion percentage, threw it four times as much for only twice as many yards (and half as many on the ground) and one more passing TD, actually threw an interception and had several that should have been picked as well? Sound reasoning.

And if you think that a 95% completion percentage, 250 yards passing (41 more on the ground, with a 70+ yard TD run called back for penalty) and 2 TDs and no picks is a mediocre performance, then I don't know what more you want from a QB. His YPA in that game was better than the vaunted Tennessee game as well (11.9 to 11.1), so those short passes worked pretty well...

[Gamecock Lifer]

There is a pretty clear difference between these two QBs. Thompson has by FAR the "bigger" arm. He has a quick release and almost perfect form when he throws. Connor looks oike he is throwing his whole body into the pass when he tries tog o deep. he can hit some deep balls, he is accurate considering how strained he looks... but he just doesnt have the arm that Dylan has. Thompson is a little taller and while he is a great athlete, he simply is not nearly as fast as Connor. Shaw is a BURNER. One of the fastest QBs in the NCAA, but he would never get that kind of recognition nationally because he is a white dude (go ahead and hate me for saying it but that is truth! Ask Wes Welker or Danny Amigdola why they think people underestimate their speed even at the pro levels... I've seen interviews where both specifically pointed to their race as a big reason)... This however does tend to limit his ability to be an effective passer because he is too quick to tuck it and run. In the end it is hard to knock the kid for that because I've seen him rip off some long, impressive runs but he needs to stick in the pocket and give routes more time to develope. It also tends to make our fans think the pass blocking is not good at times when it was fine, but Shaw looked at one WR option and bailed on the play too early wiki title to no pressure on him!

As far as comparing their passing ability though- Shaw is a tremendously accurate passer on routes shorter than about 15-20 yards. On Longer routes, he tends too still be pretty accurate, but his lack of arm strength makes the ball take too long to get there and tends to leave the WR open for a big hit, a pass break up or an INT. Dylan Thompson is maybe not quite as consistent on the "easy"/ short routes at times... He seems to get excited when a pass is wide open every now and then and fire it to high/ hard or bounce it on the ground in front of the guy... But he mostly did that earlier in the year... On deep routes though, you see the biggest difference. Dylan stands in the pocket long enough for these routes to develope ( the first REQUIREMENT) normally, and when he sends it down field he looks like he is doing it with a Flick of the wrist. He reminds me of Kurt Warner a littl bit in the way he delivers the ball (no I didn't say he is as good as Warner, just a similar delivery).. His delivery allows him to get the pass off quickly and he is tremendously accurate downfield. He IS a better PASSER than Shaw. I really don't know which is the better overall option for us at QB. Shaw is a proven, successful WARRIOR of a QB for us, the consummate professional in how he handles himself and leads the team... Thompson is a more EXPLOSSIVE option for the passing game, more emotional and less experienced/ consistent perhaps at times... As I said before though Thompson is a surprising capable runner for his size and somewhat clumsy runni style at time, Saw is by FAR the better running threat when HEALTHY.

Personally if Shaw isn't 100% I feel like we NEED to start Thompson... When Shaw is 100% it is about a toss up.

[pantera17]

Originally Posted by yazoo

That pass to Alshon was a rope. The 49 yard bomb to Bruce had a little air, but it wasn't floating down range by any means.

I would not consider that pass a rope. But that's probably just me. Since like I've said my standards for "ropes" are what Marino and elway threw.

Originally Posted by Loathor

So Georgia was a bad game for Shaw because he completed 60 percent of his passes (33 percent of those completions went for Tds) for 162 yards (with another 78 yards on the ground and another TD) and had two passes, into single coverage, that were won by the receiver, but no interceptions... While Clemson is a good game for Thompson when he had a worse completion percentage, threw it four times as much for only twice as many yards (and half as many on the ground) and one more passing TD, actually threw an interception and had several that should have been picked as well? Sound reasoning.

And if you think that a 95% completion percentage, 250 yards passing (41 more on the ground, with a 70+ yard TD run called back for penalty) and 2 TDs and no picks is a mediocre performance, then I don't know what more you want from a QB. His YPA in that game was better than the vaunted Tennessee game as well (11.9 to 11.1), so those short passes worked pretty well...

Noo, they weren't bad games. I didn't say they were. You are getting to into the stats. In it and Arky shaw attempted many harder throws them he did in UGA and mizzou. That was my point. And he made them. He played really well those two games. And made some great throws over the middle.

[Gamecock Lifer]

Originally Posted by Loathor

So Georgia was a bad game for Shaw because he completed 60 percent of his passes (33 percent of those completions went for Tds) for 162 yards (with another 78 yards on the ground and another TD) and had two passes, into single coverage, that were won by the receiver, but no interceptions... While Clemson is a good game for Thompson when he had a worse completion percentage, threw it four times as much for only twice as many yards (and half as many on the ground) and one more passing TD, actually threw an interception and had several that should have been picked as well? Sound reasoning.

And if you think that a 95% completion percentage, 250 yards passing (41 more on the ground, with a 70+ yard TD run called back for penalty) and 2 TDs and no picks is a mediocre performance, then I don't know what more you want from a QB. His YPA in that game was better than the vaunted Tennessee game as well (11.9 to 11.1), so those short passes worked pretty well...

Stats are indisputable facts, but only tell part of the story. Watch the way they throw the ball. Shaw has to basically take a step and launch his whole body into a deep throw, Dylan is pretty much an ear hole and elbow passer. Meaning simply he only brings the ball back to about his ear hole when he is loading up and pretty much is using his wrist and elbow to deliver the ball. This is how you get the ball off quick, it shows how much arm strength he has by comparison and even when he is chucking it 50 yards downfield, he doesn't have to take nearly as much time to set himself for a big throw. Just comparing their passing abilities, Dylan has proven to be a more explosive option in the passing game. Shaw is more the underneath passer who runs the read option well, is a fantastic rushing option and can manage the game with high completion percentages because he throws a lot of shorter passes. Now, on the corner routes, out routes and deep routes... He CAN complete them sometimes but the ball takes too long to get there most of the time and that leads to some nasty hits on our WRs and TEs as well as more contested balls by DBs. I don't think you are being reasonable if you are just using stats like completion percentages to compare their passing ability. Also, it was clear early in the year that Dylan was green as a day old bean sprout... He was nervous, and hadn't played much in real games since high school. His confidence has grown tremendously nice then and his accuracy, decision making and EVERYTHING seems to be improving accordingly.
JMHO

In the end, we can all argue about this until we are blue in the face and mad as a tater who just got beat at Death Valley.. The real truth of it all is that we are incredibly fortunate to have two fantastic options at QB, and one of the best passers in HS football committed to come play for us next year! When has the QB position EVER looked this good! Go ahead coach, PLAY THEM BOTH! I love watching both guys play! I almost wish we'd try to use Dylan early in games to try to come out firing, take the lead and get the team some energy, then slow it down later in the game with Shaw's grinding rushing and underneath passing attack to wear out the opposing D and grind out the clock when we need it. Obviously that just wouldn't work all the time, but it sure seems like a good idea to try sometime.