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Old 12-28-2012, 06:30 PM   #281
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by COCKYTALKIN View Post
Stats are used for arguments. The question was, which one is the better passer. You shouldn't need stats to answer that question in this comparison.
Stats are used for better passers in almost any debate of any athlete I have ever heard. Chances are...RB with most yards/TDs (stats) is better...WR with most yards/TDs/receptions (stats) is better...same goes with the QB...most of the time the QB with the better stats is the better QB
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:31 PM   #282
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

Connor has thrown a ton of screens that have went for 20 yards or so.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:36 PM   #283
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by pantera17 View Post
Connor has thrown a ton of screens that have went for 20 yards or so.
Yeah, and Dyan has supposedly thrown all of these marvelous deep balls that all of you praise.. What about those?? So you want to act like Connor's stats come from 20 yards screen passes, but then forget about all of these amazing 80 yard bombs that Dylan supposedly throws.

Look, the bottom line is that if you guys want to break down every type of pass that is thrown and discuss whether or not Ace Sanders unfairly runs for more yardage when Connor passes then go for it.

I know one thing.... When Connor drops back to pass we pick up almost a yard more per play then when Dylan drops back to pass..

Pretty convincing stat to me.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:39 PM   #284
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9 View Post
Considering the following:

1. Connor's completion percentage is 15% higher than Dylans.
2. While some of you like to say the completion percentage is only higher because Connor throws shorter passes, the stats say differently. Connor's YPA is almost a yard per play higher than Dylans. So either Connor doesn't only just throw the short passes like you think or the WRs run better with the ball after passes thrown from Connor. Either way, on passes (not runs), when Connor throws the ball we average almost a yard more per play than when Dylan throws it.
3. Spurrier has stated on many occasions that Connor is an "excellent passer" and continually starts Connor over Dylan. Spurrier sees them both in every practice.

So, yes, I would say there is most definitely doubt that Dylan is the better all around passer.
It's hard to judge that when you include games in which Thompson played mop-up with the second string. Shaw never played with the second string, and except Thompson's ECU, UAB, and CU games, he didn't have first string players to block for him or catch the ball. By the time we played CU, he didn't have Lattimore either. I also think his time in the second half of the Florida game is suspect, because the team was already tired and discouraged by the time he went in.

In those three games (ECU, UAB, and CU), he was 49-88, 817 yards, nearly 56% completion, and a little better than 14.6 yards per completion. Before you discount this entirely, look at his stats for last year. He had a 100% completion rate with 8.5 yards per carry and a rating of 171.4. The stinger is that he threw only two passes last season. You can make stats say anything you want them to say.

I agree with Mark Twain. "Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"
- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:48 PM   #285
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by me4USC View Post
It's hard to judge that when you include games in which Thompson played mop-up with the second string. Shaw never played with the second string, and except Thompson's ECU, UAB, and CU games, he didn't have first string players to block for him or catch the ball. By the time we played CU, he didn't have Lattimore either. I also think his time in the second half of the Florida game is suspect, because the team was already tired and discouraged by the time he went in.

In those three games (ECU, UAB, and CU), he was 49-88, 817 yards, nearly 56% completion, and a little better than 14.6 yards per completion. Before you discount this entirely, look at his stats for last year. He had a 100% completion rate with 8.5 yards per carry and a rating of 171.4. The stinger is that he threw only two passes last season. You can make stats say anything you want them to say.

I agree with Mark Twain. "Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"
- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review
Connor played mop up behind Garcia & played the 2nd half of last year without Latti too...what's your point?

And Dylan's QB rating for last year was from 2 passes...just like ESPN does it...u have to average at least 16 passes a game I think it is to qualify...so I don't agree with how u make stats say what u want them to say. Stats are facts...and the better players typically have the better stats
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:56 PM   #286
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by Cocky2001 View Post
Then you throw the ball away...it's not rocket surgery.
You said he missed a read that the CB was blitzing. I was pointing out you are totally incorrect and that we invited the blitz on that play. If you know much at all about football, you know that on designed screens, the OL lets the rushers go.

Now you want to change your position and say since the RB didn't execute, Connor should have thrown the ball away. That is a better argument but I still disagree. Connor is a playmaker and many times this year has made great plays running out of trouble in the pocket. Unfortunately, in this instance, the defender made a good play on the ball and caused a fumble. Brutal start to, as it turned out, a very poor game by our Gamecocks.

Watch the bowl practice videos from yesterday. HBC again describes our team as a very good defensive team. We play offense in a manner as not to make any mistakes, no turnovers and no sacks. Connor is better at not turning the ball over and not taking sacks. IMO, this is a very important determining factor all year as to who gets the call at QB. Dylan isn't as careless as SG was but compared to Connor, he is carless with the ball and needs to learn to value possession of the football much more than he did in the Clemson game.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:08 PM   #287
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007 View Post
Connor played mop up behind Garcia & played the 2nd half of last year without Latti too...what's your point?

And Dylan's QB rating for last year was from 2 passes...just like ESPN does it...u have to average at least 16 passes a game I think it is to qualify...so I don't agree with how u make stats say what u want them to say. Stats are facts...and the better players typically have the better stats
http://espn.go.com/college-football/...92/connor-shaw
These are Shaw's stats for the past three years. Please note the YPA and rating on 2010. Look at his YPA for 2011. He played in 10 games. Even if you throw out ECU and Vanderbilt, his YPA wouldn't come up to Thompson's. I'm not saying the Thompson is the better passer or quarterback. I'm saying that there isn't enough information to compare the two yet. You are using such a small sampling for Thompson that the comparison isn't fair. I don't know how to make it clearer.

I kept stats for high school teams for years. I know from experience that stats don't tell the whole story, and that one player can be made to look better than another by isolating certain stats.

As for what Spurrier thinks, he wouldn't play Thompson in the bowl at all if he didn't think the kid had earned it. Shaw would have the whole game. It appears to me that he's assessing both young men in regards to the starting position. Right now, there seem to be two starters who can't start at the same time. The spring will tell the tale.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:24 PM   #288
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by me4USC View Post
http://espn.go.com/college-football/...92/connor-shaw
These are Shaw's stats for the past three years. Please note the YPA and rating on 2010. Look at his YPA for 2011. He played in 10 games. Even if you throw out ECU and Vanderbilt, his YPA wouldn't come up to Thompson's. I'm not saying the Thompson is the better passer or quarterback. I'm saying that there isn't enough information to compare the two yet. You are using such a small sampling for Thompson that the comparison isn't fair. I don't know how to make it clearer.

I kept stats for high school teams for years. I know from experience that stats don't tell the whole story, and that one player can be made to look better than another by isolating certain stats.

As for what Spurrier thinks, he wouldn't play Thompson in the bowl at all if he didn't think the kid had earned it. Shaw would have the whole game. It appears to me that he's assessing both young men in regards to the starting position. Right now, there seem to be two starters who can't start at the same time. The spring will tell the tale.
That is 1 stat...there are numerous other stats that Connor is better at. But if u want to use the logic that they aren't comparable...I agree with that...I have been saying the whole time Connor has played more & has PROVEN MORE so how can anyone say Dylan is better if he hasn't done enough to be comparable

As far as stats...I never said they tell the whole story...but still the fact is typically the player with the better overall stats is indeed the better player

As for SOS...he wouldn't start Connor if he didnt think he wasn't the better QB
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:33 PM   #289
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

Is there anything more divisive to the fan base of a team that is having success than a QB controversy? I don't think so. I get that this is a message board and is meant for discussion, but this constant back and forth is accomplishing nothing. My take is this: whoever is in at QB, that's who I hope has success. Beyond that, it does me no good to favor one over the other, because my opinion won't affect Spurrier's decision on who gets the playing time.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:53 PM   #290
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by me4USC View Post
It's hard to judge that when you include games in which Thompson played mop-up with the second string. Shaw never played with the second string, and except Thompson's ECU, UAB, and CU games, he didn't have first string players to block for him or catch the ball. By the time we played CU, he didn't have Lattimore either. I also think his time in the second half of the Florida game is suspect, because the team was already tired and discouraged by the time he went in.

In those three games (ECU, UAB, and CU), he was 49-88, 817 yards, nearly 56% completion, and a little better than 14.6 yards per completion. Before you discount this entirely, look at his stats for last year. He had a 100% completion rate with 8.5 yards per carry and a rating of 171.4. The stinger is that he threw only two passes last season. You can make stats say anything you want them to say.

I agree with Mark Twain. "Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"
- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review
I love the explanations from the first part of this because it's a new twist on things that have been rehashed over and over. When Thomson struggles with the first team guys it's because they don't have the heart to play with him but yet they also have an extra step when he's on the field. We also hear that he struggles with them because he hasn't worked with them enough to be successful yet when he comes in with the second unit guys who he has worked with more you can't count that either because those are second unit guys. Of course most of those second unit guys also play with the starters but clearly there is a major drop off there.

You are right though that stats can be misleading when you are looking at a small sample size but when you have enough to actually make an even comparison the only reason to throw them out is they don't support your argument.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:40 PM   #291
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9 View Post
Well considering that Shaw picks up more yardage every time he drops back to pass than Dylan, then I would say Connor is the better passer. Isn't that kind of the "object of passing?"

Or are you asking if one can throw it better through the clown's mouth at a fair???

Connor drops back to pass it and our team gains almost a yard more than when Dylan does the same.

Yep, to me, that would be a pretty good argument for Connor being a better passer.
You made that clear with your last post. If you aren't bringing anything new, well... continue on arguing with yourself.

For S's & G's I'll repeat myself.

If you need stats to know who is the better passer, in this case, you don't know what passing a football is.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007 View Post
Stats are used for better passers in almost any debate of any athlete I have ever heard. Chances are...RB with most yards/TDs (stats) is better...WR with most yards/TDs/receptions (stats) is better...same goes with the QB...most of the time the QB with the better stats is the better QB
If we were talking tennis, sure. But we're not, there are always a minimum of 10 other players on the field... stats don't tell the whole story. Stats give the sportscasters something to talk about.

The only plausible argument against Dylan, which I have yet to hear, is the fact that the teams he has faced have forced us to throw. Gave him opportunities by selling out to stop the run. I'll buy that.

Arguing stats, that are relatively close in comparison, when a guy has 2.5 games worth of numbers is irrelevant, the sample size isn't big enough... AND... we have yet to see what he can do vs. a solid defense.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:35 PM   #292
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by COCKYTALKIN View Post



If we were talking tennis, sure. But we're not, there are always a minimum of 10 other players on the field... stats don't tell the whole story. Stats give the sportscasters something to talk about.

The only plausible argument against Dylan, which I have yet to hear, is the fact that the teams he has faced have forced us to throw. Gave him opportunities by selling out to stop the run. I'll buy that.

Arguing stats, that are relatively close in comparison, when a guy has 2.5 games worth of numbers is irrelevant, the sample size isn't big enough... AND... we have yet to see what he can do vs. a solid defense.
Again...stats don't tell the WHOLE story...never said it did...but it typically tells who is better. The best have the best stats...that's just how it goes. Look at the players in the Hall of Fame...see if their stats are good or bad.

And again...if Dylan hasn't played enough to compare to Connors...then what I have been saying the whole time is correct...Connor has PROVEN more & is the clear cut best QB SO FAR...could he PROVE to be better over time...OF COURSE...but is he right now...OF COURSE NOT!
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:37 PM   #293
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by Dizzy01 View Post
I love the explanations from the first part of this because it's a new twist on things that have been rehashed over and over. When Thomson struggles with the first team guys it's because they don't have the heart to play with him but yet they also have an extra step when he's on the field. We also hear that he struggles with them because he hasn't worked with them enough to be successful yet when he comes in with the second unit guys who he has worked with more you can't count that either because those are second unit guys. Of course most of those second unit guys also play with the starters but clearly there is a major drop off there.

You are right though that stats can be misleading when you are looking at a small sample size but when you have enough to actually make an even comparison the only reason to throw them out is they don't support your argument.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:12 PM   #294
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Again...stats don't tell the WHOLE story...never said it did...but it typically tells who is better. The best have the best stats...that's just how it goes. Look at the players in the Hall of Fame...see if their stats are good or bad.

And again...if Dylan hasn't played enough to compare to Connors...then what I have been saying the whole time is correct...Connor has PROVEN more & is the clear cut best QB SO FAR...could he PROVE to be better over time...OF COURSE...but is he right now...OF COURSE NOT!
You are still arguing the obvious, we all know the numbers, we all know the records. We all also know how we looked vs. Florida and LSU. The only thing you can't "get a grip" on is the fact that the team becomes one dimensional with Connor at QB. This is fine vs. the majority of the country, but when you face a top notch defense you need balance. You need to be able to stretch the field. Teams don't respect his ability to go deep.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:25 PM   #295
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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You are still arguing the obvious, we all know the numbers, we all know the records. We all also know how we looked vs. Florida and LSU. The only thing you can't "get a grip" on is the fact that the team becomes one dimensional with Connor at QB. This is fine vs. the majority of the country, but when you face a top notch defense you need balance. You need to be able to stretch the field. Teams don't respect his ability to go deep.
I can't "get a grip" on it?!!! It's obvious who is having problems "getting a grip" on this. It's a "fact" that our team is one dimensional with Connor at QB but its not with Dylan huh...so did you watch the Tennessee game? Or how about Kentucky last year? (And Kentucky was inside the top 25 in pass D last year...NOTHING close to like Dylan has faced yet)
And as I have explained numerous times...it is very rare a QB does good against the D's we faced this year. Look at the heisman winner and what he did against LSU & Florida this year. Connor actually played just as good if not better than he did against these teams. Most of the Dylan homers don't understand how important great D's are...I know Manziel played good against Bama...but Connor played good against a good D too...Georgia. And also keep one more thing in mind...he did good against most teams he faced this year while he WAS HURT!! A lot of team Dylan keep forgetting that
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:39 PM   #296
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007 View Post
I can't "get a grip" on it?!!! It's obvious who is having problems "getting a grip" on this. It's a "fact" that our team is one dimensional with Connor at QB but its not with Dylan huh...so did you watch the Tennessee game? Or how about Kentucky last year? (And Kentucky was inside the top 25 in pass D last year...NOTHING close to like Dylan has faced yet)
And as I have explained numerous times...it is very rare a QB does good against the D's we faced this year. Look at the heisman winner and what he did against LSU & Florida this year. Connor actually played just as good if not better than he did against these teams. Most of the Dylan homers don't understand how important great D's are...I know Manziel played good against Bama...but Connor played good against a good D too...Georgia. And also keep one more thing in mind...he did good against most teams he faced this year while he WAS HURT!! A lot of team Dylan keep forgetting that
You also seem to forget that Connor hasn't really done well aganst bad Ds either.

Connor has only had four games where he has played the QB position right. How it's meant to be played. How it should be played.

Other than that he has been below average to average. At best.

Many people forget how bad our offense was in 2011 with Connor at QB because of how the team finished the year.

This year he has regressed in my book. Even before he got hurt at vandy he just didn't look the same as he did at the end of 2011.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:56 PM   #297
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by COCKYTALKIN View Post
Y The only thing you can't "get a grip" on is the fact that the team becomes one dimensional with Connor at QB. This is fine vs. the majority of the country, but when you face a top notch defense you need balance. You need to be able to stretch the field. Teams don't respect his ability to go deep.
One dimensional in that he picks up more yards per play than Dylan??

You really sound like a Clemson fan. You sound like a Clemson fan for the last four years saying that despite the fact that they haven't beaten SC, they are still the better team and "anyone can see it."

Connor picks up more yards per play every time he touches it. That is the only stat I care about and yes, that stat absolutely does matter. You saying it doesn't matter is as ridiculous as saying that the scoreboard doesn't matter.

The team picks up more yards per play with Connor at QB.

It is amazing that even with all of these things that you say Connor "can't do" or "doesn't do" when he is on the field, the team averages almost a yard more per play.

Amazing how that works.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:58 PM   #298
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

Love that Spurrier says Connor is an "excellent passer" and all kinds of other good things about Connor's passing ability but yet some fans on a message board think that if someone thinks Connor has the ability to pass the ball well that they are "blind."

I guess Spurrier is blind.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:03 PM   #299
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

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Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007 View Post
(And Kentucky was inside the top 25 in pass D last year...NOTHING close to like Dylan has faced yet)
Again, stats that are meaningless. Case in point. The team you reference sucked.

I'll give you one guess as to why they had a top 25 pass defense.

Hint: It had nothing to do with skill.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:03 PM   #300
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Default Re: Dylan Thompson To Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by COCKYTALKIN View Post
You are still arguing the obvious, we all know the numbers, we all know the records. We all also know how we looked vs. Florida and LSU. The only thing you can't "get a grip" on is the fact that the team becomes one dimensional with Connor at QB. This is fine vs. the majority of the country, but when you face a top notch defense you need balance. You need to be able to stretch the field. Teams don't respect his ability to go deep.
So we can argue these points all day, but let me ask you a question then if you think this is all just SO CLEAR that anyone with eyes can see it....

Why is Connor our staring QB then? Dylan has been on the team for the past two seasons, yet he has only started when Connor is injured.

Why is that? Spurrier sees them in practice. Wouldn't Spurrier see all of these GLARING differences that you think make Dylan the only QB on our roster that can beat a good defense???

Yet, amazingly, Connor is still the starting QB. Why is that?
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