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Old 01-02-2013, 01:14 PM   #41
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by ConwayGamecock View Post
I remember the UAB game where Connor threw that 20-yd pass to Ellington to the UAB 2 yd line, where he waited until the last moment to throw the pass even though there was a DL gunning for him like Clowney did to Michigan's Smith yesterday. He completed the pass, and was lost for the rest of the game re-injuring his already cracked shoulder blade. Marcus scored a TD from 2 yds out....

Like was said above, you have the right to your opinion, but your opinion is pretty wrong....
See this is what I think, but alot of these fans will deny it. If DT had made the pass that you are talking about instead of Connor, then I can PROMISE you that some of these guys would say that Connor would have never thrown that pass. But he did, in fact, throw it. I said yesterday, and I believe it completely, that if DT had thrown the pass to Ace in the back of the endzone that was one of the most perfect passes you will ever see, that there is no way in hell Connor would have been able to make that throw.

Connor launched that ball with his feet on the forty yard line and Ace caught it with one inch to spare in the back of the endzone. The ball was not even close to being a floater and it was thrown 50 yards and hit Ace at exactly the spot it needed to hit him for a TD. Oh and Ace also had double coverage on him.

Like i said, these guys will deny it. But I guarantee you there is absolutely no way Connor could have made that pass if it had been DT who was the one that threw it. You all would have said that Connor "would never thrown it to where it hit Ace exactly where it needed to" or that "Connor would have taken off running because Ace was double covered."
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #42
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Let's break it down:

Dylan could not have made that 64 yard run that Connor made

Dylan probably would have been sacked on that play where Connor spun out of it and threw it to Ace for a first down on the final drive

Connor may not have been able to make that final throw to Bruce

Verdict? I think the two quarterback system is the way to go. Both quarterbacks bring valuable assets to the table, whether it's Dylan's pocket presence or Connor's ability to elude the pass rush and gain yards on the ground. Good problem to have in my opinion.
While what you say has validity, you ignore one thing we saw for sure with Shaw. He missed multiple open WR down the field. I think it was Buster Anderson who was the TE wide open on a wheel route at the 10 and he just threw it behind and out of bounds. Completely on Shaw, not the WR for that incomplete pass. That was the serious with the blocked FG, so that miss could have cost us 3-7 points. Then later he missed Shaq Roland, by leading him out of bounds. Roland could have adjusted better and may be made an amazing catch in bounds, but the pass was awful; Roland was wide open, had the CB beat by 3-4 steps.

I like Shaw and think right now you will probably have to go with a combo of the two QBs. My biggest issue is that Shaw misses to many open deep routes and doesn't throw over the LB and under the FS well. That is a huge part of Spurrier's passing game and you only see it when Dylan is in, because he has the natural pass that is good for Spurrier's offense. Dylan is keeps the balls catch able and throws a better deep ball. Dylan can't create as much as Shaw, but he gives you enough.

The running game would actually be better, in my opinion, if we had a sustained passing game. No one is scared of us passing and they load up the box. If we were hitting our deep routes and those TE up the seems more, they'd have to back off the line and that would open up the running game.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:19 PM   #43
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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He did to much better and a couple of times he did take the hits but usually they weren't in the pocket. He took one good hit I can think of where he didn't try to dance around and actually stepped up into the pocket. I know everyone says that Shaw "helps" our line but in reality what he does can make it harder to block. If you have a pocket passer and you are a tackle that gets beat by the end on a speed rush you are taught to basically keep pushing him down field instead of trying to stop him from getting around you. This simplifies the pass blocking by allowing your tackles to take away the inside pass rush move and know that if they have to push the guy down the field the QB will just step up into the pocket instead of moving laterally in it. If you go to almost any QB camp in the country this is the way it is taught, not 1,2,3 run for your life. Pocket poise is something that to me is an intangible you cannot teach. Dylan has it to me...reminds me of a Brady or Manning that seems to have eyes in the back of his head or something because he usually knows when the rush is bearing down on him even if it is from behind.
I see what you are saying and i agree with a lot of it....and i know my response sounds like a broken record...but i have to say it again...Dylan hasn't played againt many good DL's that pass rush him...the teams he has stayed in the pocket well against didn't have much of a pass rush but as far as everything else you said i agree with. A mobile QB is harder to protect. I played TE in high school and DE...but was mainly a blocking TE and it is not as easy as everyone thinks to block for a running QB. You have to be aware of where the QB is and at the same time try to keep your guy in front of you when he can see where the QB is better than you. But at the same time...when an OL has problems blocking...a mobile QB can get away from the pressure easier so it's a cache 22 on which one you go with. BUt as far as staying in and taking hits...i think anyone on here would agree that Connor gives it up for the best of the team...he has taken some shots in his 3 years here and i look forward to what next year brings with a better and more experienced OL to protect for both of them
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:24 PM   #44
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9 View Post
So Carolina4life, you are saying that if Connor had been the QB for the entire game yesterday we would have lost. That is exactly what you stated in another thread so please correct me if I am putting words in your mouth.
Done.
Quote:
"Dylan won that game for us yesterday. No way Shaw would have threw that ball to Bruce. IMOP"
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:25 PM   #45
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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While what you say has validity, you ignore one thing we saw for sure with Shaw. He missed multiple open WR down the field. I think it was Buster Anderson who was the TE wide open on a wheel route at the 10 and he just threw it behind and out of bounds. Completely on Shaw, not the WR for that incomplete pass. That was the serious with the blocked FG, so that miss could have cost us 3-7 points. Then later he missed Shaq Roland, by leading him out of bounds. Roland could have adjusted better and may be made an amazing catch in bounds, but the pass was awful; Roland was wide open, had the CB beat by 3-4 steps.

I like Shaw and think right now you will probably have to go with a combo of the two QBs. My biggest issue is that Shaw misses to many open deep routes and doesn't throw over the LB and under the FS well. That is a huge part of Spurrier's passing game and you only see it when Dylan is in, because he has the natural pass that is good for Spurrier's offense. Dylan is keeps the balls catch able and throws a better deep ball. Dylan can't create as much as Shaw, but he gives you enough.

The running game would actually be better, in my opinion, if we had a sustained passing game. No one is scared of us passing and they load up the box. If we were hitting our deep routes and those TE up the seems more, they'd have to back off the line and that would open up the running game.
Well the good part is that Spurrier sees all of these wide open receivers that you say Shaw misses and Spurrier sees what you see in regards to Dylan. He even sees more since he gets to see them in practice.

So if Dylan starts next year it will be because he is better for the team and gives us a better chance to win. And I am absolutely fine with that. BUT, if Shaw starts next year then that is ALSO because he is THE BETTER QB at giving our team a chance to win. Just like he played most of the bowl game yesterday and accounted for 75% of our total offensive production. I guess Spurrier felt like there was a reason Shaw should play the most snaps.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:26 PM   #46
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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I see what you are saying and i agree with a lot of it....and i know my response sounds like a broken record...but i have to say it again...Dylan hasn't played againt many good DL's that pass rush him...the teams he has stayed in the pocket well against didn't have much of a pass rush but as far as everything else you said i agree with.
So now its the fact that Thompson hasn't played a good DL? First it was prove it against a good defense. Then when he does it shifts to be all about the DL? I shouldn't be surprised coming from someone who was comparing Shaw to Montana.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:29 PM   #47
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Done.
Actually klempsux, this the post I was referring to from Carolina4Life that was in another thread... "I don't think we would have won if Shaw hadn't got hurt. Dylan came in and WON it!"

Notice, he didn't say that Connor wouldn't have made the same throw that DT made. He says that, in his opinion, we would have lost.

So he thinks we would have lost with Connor as the QB for the entire game. We know that now. So I wanted to know if he thought we would have lost with DT as the QB for the entire game since the post he was saying "thank you" to was a post that was saying that BOTH QBs were instrumental in the victory yesterday. That poster was saying that we needed both QBs to win yesterday so I was wondering if Carolina4life agreed.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:39 PM   #48
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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So now its the fact that Thompson hasn't played a good DL? First it was prove it against a good defense. Then when he does it shifts to be all about the DL? I shouldn't be surprised coming from someone who was comparing Shaw to Montana.
We are talking about pass rush and how the OL blocks for a pocket passer vs a mobile QB...and i was responding to how Dylan has LOOKED good in a pocket...but he didn't look the same against Florida and hasn't proven that same pocket presence against good pass rushers. He proved he could play good yesterday against a good D...but we are not on that topic...the topic was his pocket presence. And again...what the heck are you talking about? I have never compared Shaw to Montana unless you call me saying that Montana was good at protecting the ball and so is Connor...if that is you thinking i "compared them"...then i guess I could compare me and Montana too....heck...i'm a white male...right handed...so i guess i'm compared to Montana too huh?!! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:42 PM   #49
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9 View Post
Actually klempsux, this the post I was referring to from Carolina4Life that was in another thread... "I don't think we would have won if Shaw hadn't got hurt. Dylan came in and WON it!"

Notice, he didn't say that Connor wouldn't have made the same throw that DT made. He says that, in his opinion, we would have lost.

So he thinks we would have lost with Connor as the QB for the entire game. We know that now. So I wanted to know if he thought we would have lost with DT as the QB for the entire game since the post he was saying "thank you" to was a post that was saying that BOTH QBs were instrumental in the victory yesterday. That poster was saying that we needed both QBs to win yesterday so I was wondering if Carolina4life agreed.
I wish some posters would actually read the threads and comprehend them before posting...some aren't too good at that! LOL

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Old 01-02-2013, 01:49 PM   #50
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

I want to backtrack in some of my posts a little bit because I think I get off on a tangent defending Connor, which I do think he deserves.

I just want to make sure I am clear that I think Dylan has played excellently and I would support it 100% if Spurrier named him the starter next year. I would also support it 100% if he names Shaw the starter.

The reason I get off track, however, is because some of you are completely unfair to Connor in some of your comments. It isn't that there isn't validity to some of the posts where you say that Connor needs to get rid of it more, etc. We all get frustrated at times with things that our players do. Connor holding on to the ball is one of those things.

But the unfair part is because some of you act like Connor can't make the throws that Dylan makes. That is absurd. If Dylan makes the throw yesterday to Ace in the back of the end zone, every one of you is saying that Connor couldn't have made that throw it and don't act like you wouldn't have either. That was one of the best passes by a Gamecock QB in years and I can promise that you would have said that there was no way Connor could have or would have made that throw if he wasn't actually the one who threw it.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:10 PM   #51
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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While what you say has validity, you ignore one thing we saw for sure with Shaw. He missed multiple open WR down the field. I think it was Buster Anderson who was the TE wide open on a wheel route at the 10 and he just threw it behind and out of bounds. Completely on Shaw, not the WR for that incomplete pass. That was the serious with the blocked FG, so that miss could have cost us 3-7 points. Then later he missed Shaq Roland, by leading him out of bounds. Roland could have adjusted better and may be made an amazing catch in bounds, but the pass was awful; Roland was wide open, had the CB beat by 3-4 steps.

I like Shaw and think right now you will probably have to go with a combo of the two QBs. My biggest issue is that Shaw misses to many open deep routes and doesn't throw over the LB and under the FS well. That is a huge part of Spurrier's passing game and you only see it when Dylan is in, because he has the natural pass that is good for Spurrier's offense. Dylan is keeps the balls catch able and throws a better deep ball. Dylan can't create as much as Shaw, but he gives you enough.

The running game would actually be better, in my opinion, if we had a sustained passing game. No one is scared of us passing and they load up the box. If we were hitting our deep routes and those TE up the seems more, they'd have to back off the line and that would open up the running game.
You don't know the route the TE was supposed to run, Gruden even said so. If he had sat on the route it would have been complete. This is my problem with fan criticism, you don't know enough to make informed criticisms.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:21 PM   #52
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

Quarterback is a position of strength heading into the off season. Nice problem to have.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:24 PM   #53
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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While what you say has validity, you ignore one thing we saw for sure with Shaw. He missed multiple open WR down the field. I think it was Buster Anderson who was the TE wide open on a wheel route at the 10 and he just threw it behind and out of bounds. Completely on Shaw, not the WR for that incomplete pass. That was the serious with the blocked FG, so that miss could have cost us 3-7 points. Then later he missed Shaq Roland, by leading him out of bounds. Roland could have adjusted better and may be made an amazing catch in bounds, but the pass was awful; Roland was wide open, had the CB beat by 3-4 steps.



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Old 01-02-2013, 02:27 PM   #54
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

Conner and Dillon... what a duo...

Seriously though- Shaw can make good throws, BUT his throws aren't like Dylan's. Dylan's arm is stronger and he gets the ball there quicker. Makes people a little less nervous. I think that's why people say things like "Shaw couldn't have made that throw"... It's not so much that Connor couldn't complete the throw, it's that he couldn't make the same type of throw. Connor's a heck of a football player, but Dylan is the better pure passer. They have very different styles.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:32 PM   #55
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Conner and Dillon... what a duo...

Seriously though- Shaw can make good throws, BUT his throws aren't like Dylan's. Dylan's arm is stronger and he gets the ball there quicker. Makes people a little less nervous. I think that's why people say things like "Shaw couldn't have made that throw"... It's not so much that Connor couldn't complete the throw, it's that he couldn't make the same type of throw. Connor's a heck of a football player, but Dylan is the better pure passer. They have very different styles.
Cock, question for you. If DT had made the EXACT same throw to Ace in the back of the endzone where the ball traveled 50 yards in the air and hit Ace exactly where it needed to in the middle of double coverage and you had watched it, would you have said "Connor couldn't make that same type of throw?" Try to think about it objectively and I would like your opinion. You may say yes and, if so, that is fine and I will not doubt you. I just personally think that Connor's throw to Ace yesterday was just as good as any we have seen ANY QB make at SC in a long time. And I know if it had been DT that made that throw many of our fans would have said Connor couldn't make it.

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Old 01-02-2013, 02:42 PM   #56
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

This is a simple case of "When you have a new hammer, everything looks like a nail." Suddenly, a route that could have been the fault of the receiver is used as an example of how Connor Shaw underthrows the ball. Maybe he threw it short because that's where the receiver was supposed to be...we don't know.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:00 PM   #57
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9 View Post
Cock, question for you. If DT had made the EXACT same throw to Ace in the back of the endzone where the ball traveled 50 yards in the air and hit Ace exactly where it needed to in the middle of double coverage and you had watched it, would you have said "Connor couldn't make that same type of throw?" Try to think about it objectively and I would like your opinion. You may say yes and, if so, that is fine and I will not doubt you. I just personally think that Connor's throw to Ace yesterday was just as good as any we have seen ANY QB make at SC in a long time so if he completed that throw, in that manner, I am not sure how it can be said that he "can't make the same type of throw." I guess I am not sure what passes you are talking about that Dylan throws. I have seen some GREAT passes by Dylan, but I haven't seen any that pass for pass show me that it is a throw that Connor can't make. He may have that ability, I am just wondering where that pass was thrown that was better than the pass Connor threw to Ace yesterday.

DT pass to Damiere Byrd in the ECU game was the best one I have seen him make this year and it was a GREAT pass, but it was about the same as the pass CS threw to Ace yesterday. The only difference is that Ace had double coverage and the ball was thrown to the back of the endzone. But they were both thrown almost the exact same yardage in the air and they both were put exactly where they needed to be. Neither of the passes were "floaters" in any way.
Connor's passes don't look like Dylan's passes. They have less velocity and tend to hang up in the air a bit longer. Connor has also had issues with underthrowing the deep balls this season. Dylan's arm just simply appears to be stronger.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:05 PM   #58
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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While what you say has validity, you ignore one thing we saw for sure with Shaw. He missed multiple open WR down the field. I think it was Buster Anderson who was the TE wide open on a wheel route at the 10 and he just threw it behind and out of bounds. Completely on Shaw, not the WR for that incomplete pass. That was the serious with the blocked FG, so that miss could have cost us 3-7 points. Then later he missed Shaq Roland, by leading him out of bounds. Roland could have adjusted better and may be made an amazing catch in bounds, but the pass was awful; Roland was wide open, had the CB beat by 3-4 steps.

I like Shaw and think right now you will probably have to go with a combo of the two QBs. My biggest issue is that Shaw misses to many open deep routes and doesn't throw over the LB and under the FS well. That is a huge part of Spurrier's passing game and you only see it when Dylan is in, because he has the natural pass that is good for Spurrier's offense. Dylan is keeps the balls catch able and throws a better deep ball. Dylan can't create as much as Shaw, but he gives you enough.

The running game would actually be better, in my opinion, if we had a sustained passing game. No one is scared of us passing and they load up the box. If we were hitting our deep routes and those TE up the seems more, they'd have to back off the line and that would open up the running game.
This is exactly what so many fail to grasp. With shaw under center the running game is virtually non-existent outside of shaw himself. It's one of the reasons Marcus' numbers suffered only on; the zone read usually resulted in shaw running the ball himself.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:08 PM   #59
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9 View Post
Cock, question for you. If DT had made the EXACT same throw to Ace in the back of the endzone where the ball traveled 50 yards in the air and hit Ace exactly where it needed to in the middle of double coverage and you had watched it, would you have said "Connor couldn't make that same type of throw?" Try to think about it objectively and I would like your opinion. You may say yes and, if so, that is fine and I will not doubt you. I just personally think that Connor's throw to Ace yesterday was just as good as any we have seen ANY QB make at SC in a long time. And I know if it had been DT that made that throw many of our fans would have said Connor couldn't make it.
I know exactly where you stand, but now you're trying to posit that Shaw's arm strength is equal to or greater than Dylan's. that would seem to be obviously not the case. DT has better passing fundamentals than shaw. It doesn't mean shaw is awful, but DT is better physically equipped to complete the act of throwing the football. He's taller and certainly appears to have greater arm strength.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:11 PM   #60
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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We need a legitimate running game before Thompson gets the start. He is a more polished passer but without a running game, Shaw gets the edge.

Still have no idea why Davis didn't get more carries this year.
EXACTLY. Though Thompson avoided a couple probable sacks, we gotta have Shaw's mobility...due to the inconsistency of our OLine.
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