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Old 01-03-2013, 08:34 AM   #121
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by Rebel4ever View Post
Shaw played well and made some keys passes. That said, if Dylan started and played the whole game, we'd have beat Michigan by 17-20 points. He shredded their defense the little time he played. Shaw had at least 4-5 wasted drives. Dylan none. Our offense is better and more efficient with Dylan leading.
Don't understand this logic at all...nobody can predict the future or try to determine how he WOULD HAVE done if he would have played more. I bet if Connor would have gotten taken out after the first drive...and Dylan came in to play the rest of the game...you could say the same about Connor. That's the same as saying if Seth Strickland would have played more this year he would have more TDs than both QBs bc he has only attempted 6 passes and 1 was a TD...so does that mean every 6 throws is gonna be a TD? Come on guys....don't you think if our offense was more efficient with Dylan he would have started every game this year?!
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:37 AM   #122
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by STEPHONGILMOREFAN! View Post
I'm just gonna throw this out there.. I have been a hugeee shaw downer.. I love what dylan has done and he can make all the throws... but that throw from connor to damiere and to ace for tds..... arm strength and ball placement.that's our qb
Thank you SGF...very well said...but there are a lot of our fans out there that says he don't have arm strength when that first ball to Byrd flew for about 55-60 yards
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:38 AM   #123
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by trapper82 View Post
Maybe you should coach the team, that Spurrier guy obviously doesn't have the insight you do about football.


See how dumb that sounds?


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Old 01-03-2013, 08:40 AM   #124
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Don't understand this logic at all...
Logic is a strong word for it.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:19 AM   #125
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

Shaw is a great gamecock and a warrior who was playing hurt nearly all season, including the bowl game. Thompson was so hot in the outback bowl it was rediculous. Nearly every pass was perfection, even the ones the receivers botched. I personally would have stayed with the hot hand after that throw to the corner of the endzone and let thompson play, especially given Connor's obvious injury. I guess they might have decided to go with the more elusive guy because our line was letting rushers come free on almost every play. I'm not too worried about who starts next season because Shaw is a winner, but has proven injury prone so I'm just rediculously excited to have Thompson behind him. Also, Thompson will for sure get a season after Connor leaves, if he keeps improving. Thompson could be developing into an NFL prospect and I'm just amazed.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:02 PM   #126
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Thos other QBs take shots down the field more often so they have more incomplete passes factored into their stats. Yards per an attempt isn't proving jack. It actually, if anything, proves my point. He throws check downs and doesn't push the ball down the field enough. He is very conservative with the ball and will take a sack rather than trying to hit a guy 20 yards down field.

I love how you guys try to find some stat that places Shaw with top QBs but ignore the actual eye test. I have listed multiple plays in the outback bowl and you can go through the season and watch games and see him consistently miss wide open WR. Florida he had a WR standing all alone in the end zone and he threw it about 10 yards out of bounds. He just isn't accurate consistently on his deep passes. One completion where he is accurate doesn't change the fact that he missed 5 others.



Jones fell diving for the ba that was poorly thrown. You apparently missed that portion of my response.
I find it fascinating that the argument is made that with more playing time and attempts Thomson's numbers would go up while under the same assumption Shaw's numbers would go down.

As for the Jones play I did see your response but just because you posted that doesn't make it an accurate description of what happened.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:22 PM   #127
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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I find it fascinating that the argument is made that with more playing time and attempts Thomson's numbers would go up while under the same assumption Shaw's numbers would go down.
That's not his argument at all. Shaw's YPA is higher because his 3 yard dink and dunk passes won't lower it as much as an incompletion would. Basically someone checking down on a called 40 yard pass and getting 3 would help them out much more than attempting the 40 yard pass and having it barely miss.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:12 PM   #128
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by gripitandripit2007 View Post
Don't understand this logic at all...
...and you never will.


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I find it fascinating that the argument is made that with more playing time and attempts Thomson's numbers would go up while under the same assumption Shaw's numbers would go down.
That's not the argument being made. We know what CS did between the two touch down passes. We don't need a crystal ball or to conjure Nostradamus from the dead, we have the game tape. In the 12 or so plays that Dylan was in there he threw the 70-something yard pass to Jones, two TD passes, one pass through the hands of the receiver in the end zone and another that ricocheted off the helmet of the receiver in the end zone (and then we missed the FG.

Fact is...DT was moving the offense better in the bowl game. We know what CS did...it is in the books and fact...we can only speculate what DT would have done, but based on the facts of what he did do, it isn't rocket surgery. Had Dylan simply played the remainder of the game the way that he had played thus far in the game we would have routed them. And no one can argue that without speculating.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:47 PM   #129
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Originally Posted by Cocky2001 View Post
...and you never will.




That's not the argument being made. We know what CS did between the two touch down passes. We don't need a crystal ball or to conjure Nostradamus from the dead, we have the game tape. In the 12 or so plays that Dylan was in there he threw the 70-something yard pass to Jones, two TD passes, one pass through the hands of the receiver in the end zone and another that ricocheted off the helmet of the receiver in the end zone (and then we missed the FG.

Fact is...DT was moving the offense better in the bowl game. We know what CS did...it is in the books and fact...we can only speculate what DT would have done, but based on the facts of what he did do, it isn't rocket surgery. Had Dylan simply played the remainder of the game the way that he had played thus far in the game we would have routed them. And no one can argue that without speculating.
Oh ok...I see...so if Connor plays like he did the last 3 games last year...(last time he played that he was 100% healthy)...and you take his averages and spread them out through 13 games...then he would end up with this...
74.54% 2847yds 35TD 4Int 219.64Qbr 1040rushingyds 13tdsrushing

Now if you take this and compare them to the Heisman winner this year...

68.3% 3419yds 24TD 8Int 155.9Qbr 1181rushingyds 19tdsrushing

And last years heisman winner...

72.4% 4293yds 37TD 6Int 189.5Qbr 699rushingyds 10tdsrushing


So as you can see...Connor's numbers the last 3 games of last year...(last time healthy)...it was similar to Heisman numbers...just going by YOUR logic....so is it safe to say that next year if Connor is healthy...he could be a Heisman candidate?
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:08 PM   #130
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

We don't know how long Shaw's shoulder bothered him this season or if it still does.

He has thrown some passes with more speed on it, at times, but I think with his intention to be very protective of the ball (after two years of hearing SOS berate Garcia over his carelessness with the ball, dumb throws, etc), he wants to be more cautious with his passes, including often taking pace off many of his passes. It was not too long ago that the only WR we had we had much confidence in catching a pass was Alshon. The rest of the guys either were still young (had to learn how to get seperation or sometimes ran the wrong routes) or had Roberto Duran "hands of stone", so a softer touch on his passes make it easier to catch and that seemed to be what he has done.

With the game on the line, you really think Shaw would have taken off and run on that last play? With a five man blitz? It was throw or sack. Here is the last TD caught at W-B by Jeffrey. A perfect throw with a tough pass rush on him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i7GSLdA1Lk

I think Shaw will never be fondly thought of by many because he replaced the poster boy Garcia. Garcia kept playing by defsult, most of the time, not becase he was a good QB (2010 BAMA game not withstanding). Shaw's overall stoic demeanor also seems to be a burr to many. His top priority for most of his time at QB here was to protect the ball, get it to Marcus and let him and our "D" control the game and it has worked. Shaw is far from perfect. Most QB's suffer from that same malady.

DT, like most QB's, are brought along slowly, getting more and more experience when they can. He shows promise and seems to be a quick learner, but has had his own hiccups (Vandy game and several potential interceptions dropped in the Clempson game), and is showing he will be a contender for next year. He will get his chance, just like Shaw did when he had a better preseason than Garcia did in 2011, as will Nosovitch. Mitch will get a look, out of fairness, but would have to play out of this world not to redshirt. SOS doesn't care who starts. He cares about who performs and wins.

Wait and see how it plays out. The past is now past. I am not going to worry unless SOS says during Spring and Fall all our QB's are stinking it up and no one derserves to start or until I see how our Offense performs in the first game. If the QB does well, great, if not, then we have something of which to be concerned. Only then.

We seem to be in good hands there for the first time in ages and reasonable hopes that we are getting better with quality depth. For once it seems we ought to be happy, but all we get is bitchin'. One way or the other, it'll work out.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:20 PM   #131
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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With the game on the line, you really think Shaw would have taken off and run on that last play? With a five man blitz? It was throw or sack.
Based on his tendency to tuck and run (which reared its head in the game in question), I do think he would have. All season he has responded w/ the slightest pressure by a tendency to roll to the opposite side and be tackled by a DLineman or LB.) And it would've resulted in him being tackled for a short/no gain (since he is hobbled and not as elusive or effective), clock would've winded down, etc.

That said, we're in the position for DT to make the last play because CS scrambled and found Ace. So he deserves ample credit for that.

I don't know if it's Shaw's health or a regression or a combo of the 2 (most likely) but he did not look as good as he did last year, not to even discuss improvement. The offense is more multidimensional under DT (the running game in particular was virtually a non-factor all season outside of Shaw himself when CS was under center. Under DT, a different story.)
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:23 PM   #132
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Oh ok...I see...so if Connor plays like he did the last 3 games last year...(last time he played that he was 100% healthy)...and you take his averages and spread them out through 13 games...then he would end up with this...
74.54% 2847yds 35TD 4Int 219.64Qbr 1040rushingyds 13tdsrushing

Now if you take this and compare them to the Heisman winner this year...

68.3% 3419yds 24TD 8Int 155.9Qbr 1181rushingyds 19tdsrushing

And last years heisman winner...

72.4% 4293yds 37TD 6Int 189.5Qbr 699rushingyds 10tdsrushing


So as you can see...Connor's numbers the last 3 games of last year...(last time healthy)...it was similar to Heisman numbers...just going by YOUR logic....so is it safe to say that next year if Connor is healthy...he could be a Heisman candidate?
Are you kidding me?

That's the best spin that you can come up with?

The problem is we didn't play this game last season...we played this game this season.

The game two days ago is what we are talking about here...not games played a year ago. This isn't clemson, we don't dwell in the past...well, most of us anyway.

We were looking in one game. You are going back to last season. So, your numbers don't matter in this. Overall, going into next season, ass-u-ming that Connor heals up to his 2011 health status, then they come into play. But in this discussion, comparing numbers that are a year old when he was healthy to two days ago, when he wasn't and couldn't finish the game, doesn't even come close to cutting it.

Spin away. When unraveled, you'll still be wrong.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:25 PM   #133
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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Oh ok...I see...so if Connor plays like he did the last 3 games last year...(last time he played that he was 100% healthy)...and you take his averages and spread them out through 13 games...then he would end up with this...
74.54% 2847yds 35TD 4Int 219.64Qbr 1040rushingyds 13tdsrushing

Now if you take this and compare them to the Heisman winner this year...

68.3% 3419yds 24TD 8Int 155.9Qbr 1181rushingyds 19tdsrushing

And last years heisman winner...

72.4% 4293yds 37TD 6Int 189.5Qbr 699rushingyds 10tdsrushing


So as you can see...Connor's numbers the last 3 games of last year...(last time healthy)...it was similar to Heisman numbers...just going by YOUR logic....so is it safe to say that next year if Connor is healthy...he could be a Heisman candidate?
I'm going to entertain this for a second: I actually thought Connor had the potential this season to put up Manziel-level numbers (not the sheer amount, but in the same wheelhouse). I don't think, however, any of us know (outside of CS and the coaching/medical staff) how injured he truly was or wasn't. I understand you're making a point here about extrapolating DT's numbers and how that can be a futile exercise, but I think you really think your bolded statement is true. (FTR, I would love if it was.)

All we have to go on is what DT did do when he was in, which you want to dismiss seemingly.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:25 PM   #134
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

A reminder for every touting how great Michigan's D....

they were missing their top two corners when we played them.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:28 PM   #135
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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A reminder for every touting how great Michigan's D....

they were missing their top two corners when we played them.
And that was true for each QB while they were playing...so I am not seeing your point.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:33 PM   #136
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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And that was true for each QB while they were playing...so I am not seeing your point.
The only point is that the Michigan D wasn't as good as it was during the regular season.... some people are acting like it was great
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:35 PM   #137
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The only point is that the Michigan D wasn't as good as it was during the regular season.... some people are acting like it was great
And our Offense was missing our Heisman-caliber RB. I thought the Michigan D looked pretty effective for a lot of the game. They weren't at full-strength, but nobody is at this point in the season.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:45 PM   #138
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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And our Offense was missing our Heisman-caliber RB. I thought the Michigan D looked pretty effective for a lot of the game. They weren't at full-strength, but nobody is at this point in the season.
They D was pretty effective at getting pressure from blitzing and overwhelmed and confused our line at times, but that left their secondary vulnerable if the pressure didn't get there in time or someone blew an assignment in the secondary, both of which happen multiple times.

We've played and won without ML for the second half of two seasons, and we have quality depth behind him. I think it had a bigger impact on the game for Michigan to be without two starting CBs then people realize
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:49 PM   #139
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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The only point is that the Michigan D wasn't as good as it was during the regular season.... some people are acting like it was great
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:49 PM   #140
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Default Re: One Argument is Now Ended

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I don't know if it's Shaw's health or a regression or a combo of the 2 (most likely) but he did not look as good as he did last year, not to even discuss improvement. The offense is more multidimensional under DT (the running game in particular was virtually a non-factor all season outside of Shaw himself when CS was under center. Under DT, a different story.)
Both QB's bring something to the table the other does not and neither is a complete QB. If DT played the entire game, we would likely been near or below zero rushing yards, which means passing on every down, which means more blitzes, more pressure, and that in itself changes the dynamics of it all. It's the old for every action there is an equal reaction kind of thing.

It isn't all on the QB, either. We need better run production (and not just aone read, either), better pass protection. SOS wants to mix up the calla to keep the "D" off balance. That is tough to do when you can't run. We did it against Clempson because they did not have weeks to prepare for us and were soft. Michigan's DL was much tougher. However, in the Outback Bowl, without Shaw's running ability and threat of running, we are in deep trouble and probably lose. Michigan had a 30 play advantage over us as it was, having to throw medium or long passes every down would have caused even less TOP or us, roasting our already tired "D".

I honestly don't care who starts, however, with Shaw's experience, I feel calmer right now. As Thompson gets more experience, I will grow more comfortable with him, as well. When Shaw first began to play, I was a little anxious, too, but while Garcia had experience, his Jekyll and Hyde play made me want to watch the game while hiding my eyes behind my fingers. Imagine the turmoil SOS felt. It almost drove him back into retirement.

I would be happy as hell if Nosovitch showed the best mental acumen and ability to run the team and get the best results. I got no dog in this fight. I just want it to be someone who can lead the team and not be a head case on or off the field. Dependable and dynamic.

With Shaw being out for Spring with his foot, there can now be no hint that Thompson doesn't have every opportunity to showcase himself like never before with SOS. This will also allow Nosovitch and Mitch to get even more reps and attention, so while Shaw gets healthy, again, we find some positive.

I am not a betting man, so I will not wager who starts in 2013, but I will be shocked, for any number of reasons, if we do not see more than one QB getting good playing time. 2013 will be exciting.
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