Shaw vs. Michigan

[gripitandripit2007]

Originally Posted by Don Giovanni

Ummm, I don't know how to break it to you, but I meant that post as a joke because of all the neverending back and forth on this subject. Statistics should never be the only thing used when making an argument, because they be spun far too easily.

And to try and stretch a statistic to prove a point may be the worst argument available. Look at it this way: a QB could start a series on his own 10 yard line, attempt six total passes (only pass plays called during the series), all of which are completed, with the last being a TD. He could then be brought in for a few more plays in which he only has the ball for designed QB runs and carries the ball 3 times for 33 yards and a TD. In both situations (both of which are completely realistic), the numbers would be really, really good, but if the total number of passes and QB runs called during the game ended up being 40 and 15 respectively, someone could make the argument that said QB should be the starter because his numbers would be 40/40 for 600, and he would also rush for 165 yards every game with every possession resulting in a TD.

Ok...sorry I didn't detect the sarcasm or the joke...but as I said before...the logic to stretch stats I don't do either...I was simply saying that if u meant that...that u could see how u could do the same with Connor. As far as other stats...I see exactly what u mean...but it still dont hide what happened....the evident that it happened...the facts. If a coach calls more passing plays for one QB than another...yeah...it would be harder to compare the two...but that is why they have stats like QBR...that rating is for QBs as an average...no matter how many times u throw...it's for what u did while u were i there...not how long or how many attempts

[Tailfeathers]

Looking at next years schedule its apparent we won't have to wait long to find out who is who.

[thekob]

Originally Posted by Don Giovanni

Ummm, I don't know how to break it to you, but I meant that post as a joke because of all the neverending back and forth on this subject. Statistics should never be the only thing used when making an argument, because they be spun far too easily.

And to try and stretch a statistic to prove a point may be the worst argument available. Look at it this way: a QB could start a series on his own 10 yard line, attempt six total passes (only pass plays called during the series), all of which are completed, with the last being a TD. He could then be brought in for a few more plays in which he only has the ball for designed QB runs and carries the ball 3 times for 33 yards and a TD. In both situations (both of which are completely realistic), the numbers would be really, really good, but if the total number of passes and QB runs called during the game ended up being 40 and 15 respectively, someone could make the argument that said QB should be the starter because his numbers would be 40/40 for 600, and he would also rush for 165 yards every game with every possession resulting in a TD.

I don't understand why Spurrier didn't want to score 147 points (7x7) on Michigan...fire the coach!

Seriously though, love the stats and extrapolation, point well made!

I think that a healthy Shaw will end up starting, but Thompson is a lot closer to Shaw than I thought he'd be. I like this whole QB-depth thing and could get used to it! As an aside, it's funny that the Shaw vs. Thompson debate creates so much division among fans vs. between Shaw or Thompson, both are great teammates!

Also Shaw's movie equivalent is a battered and beat up Bruce Willis in Die Hard, still getting the job done regardless. I am constantly impressed with our QB's.

[JoeMorrisonLives]

Originally Posted by Don Giovanni

Well, I guess I'll contribute to this thread on the subject too. I mean apparently this is all that's going to be discussed, so if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Anyway, using stats as the weapon, Thompson was 7/10 for 117 yards. So if one were to look at the yards per completion, Shaw ended up with 12.56 ypc and Thompson had 16.71 ypc.

Let's now look at completion percentage. Shaw ended his day with a good percentage, 69.23%, and Thompson completed 70% of his passes.

If we go a step farther and look at the percentage of TDs thrown by total passes attempted by each and then passes completed, Shaw's TD percentages were 7.69% (total attempts) and 11.1% (completions). Compare that with Thompson's percentages of 20% (total) and 28.57% (completions), and we see Thompson outperformed Shaw here as well.

Now let's make the final adjustment. Since Thompson completed 70% of his passes and 28.57% of those were TDs, we can reasonably deduce that if Thompson had been the starter and the same number of total passing plays had been called (36), he would have ended up with the following numbers: 25/36 for 418 yards and 7 TDs, so I think the choice is clear. Don't we just love statistics?!

The game has swings, Thompson had success when we had momentum, and Shaw has beaten teams with good secondaries, Thompson beat Clemson, a couple of CUSA teams, and Michigan with their two best corners out, not as big an indicator as you think.

[Dizzy01]

Originally Posted by me4USC

Amen! My vote is that anyone who thinks there should be an open contest between the two, or who thinks Thompson should be the starter, should just stay off the thread and let these guys talk to each other.

It's rather ironic that this "Amen" was followed up with creating a new thread to start a conversation about a topic that was already being discussed in another thread. I guess multiple threads about the same topic is okay in some situations but not others.

[unspokenrespect]

I got 2 reasons why Shaw shouldn't be the starter. They are called Florida and Louisiana. We wouldn't even be playing Michigan if Thompson was the starter during those games. Spurrier didn't even allow Thompson back in during the Michigan game until it was time for him to save the day.

It doesn't matter though, Thompson will patiently wait for injury prone Shaw to hurt himself once again.

[me4USC]

Don G, I didn't see another thread on the same subject, and I did look. If I duplicated a thread, it was not intentional.

[Coulwoodwarlord]

Originally Posted by Spurticus

If Dylan Thompson starts next season I'm happy with that, and happy
for Dylan. He'll have been given that job because Spurrier would think
he'd give us the best shot at winning games. Shaw as a #2 guy sounds
like a winning combination.

If Shaw starts next season then I'm happy with that, and happy for Shaw.
He'll have been given that job because Spurrier would think he'd give us
the best shot at winning games. Dylan as a #2 guy worked out pretty
good this year, I have no reason to doubt it will continue to work out well.

My personal feeling:
Shaw stepped into (or should I say got thrown into) a situation almost two
years ago that a lot of QBs could not have handled well. He came in
guns blazing, led this team to 6 wins out of 7 games including a win over
Clemson and a well executed game against Nebraska in our bowl game
that year.
As a starter playing hurt this year, his "WILL" won the Vanderbilt game
to start the year out. He could bearly lift his arm, but when Dylan choked
his only time this year as a field General, Shaw came back out on the field
and led the offense down the field for a winning score. It cost him dearly
for pretty much the first half of the year. With the hurt back and then
getting a bum foot for the last half of the season all he did was go 10-2
as a starter and again, what time he was able to play, he executed several
drives resulting in big plays and ended up winning as the starter in another
bowl game over a very good Michigan team.

I don't have an issue with the better of our two QBs starting, but from
a personal favorite view, Shaw deserves to be the starter of the team
simply because of the state this program was in when he took over, and
where it is now because of what he's done since he got the job. I won't
ever look for flaws in Dylan's game to make Shaw look more impressive
as "The Guy Who Should Start" ... and I'll be damned If I would readily
throw Connor asside after what he's done for this program the last two
years.

Pretty sure this about covers it ..............

[SpurProsecutor]

Spurrier knows. End of rant!!

[brat]

What's the old line by Samuel Clemens, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."?

Stats are stats, but they can be deceiving, at times.

Without watching the game again and taking mountains of notes, there are so many other factors that have to be taken into consideration...

Where was the ball when Shaw and Thompson began their respective drives? If the ball was deep inside our own territory, it would be less likely a pass would be launched with an intention of it being for a TD. For instance, when Thompson came into the game, at the end, the ball position and the circumstances gave him an opportunity to throw for a TD. I still do not think SOS would have tried another FG, under any circumstance.

Shaw also had more plays where he was needed to run the ball, because our RB's got nada, and you really can't pass on every play or our QB is going to pay the price of so many blitzes he ain't gonna get up after many more hits like Thompson took at the end of the game.

Shaw had several passes on the last drive where he just needed to move us down the field and one where he had to pick up a first down, hardly one where you are going for a TD throw. Thompson had to have an incompletion to kill the clock. They all alter the perception of the hard, cold stats.

We have at least two good QB's now and SOS will use them both, determined on the situation of the game and the needed strength one may have over the other...do we need to run more nd keep the clock going...do we need to pass and get the ball down the field quickly...

Let it play out. It wasn't too many years ago we could barely find a QB who could throw a catchable forward pass and another time our starting QB ended the season playing defense. I'll take our current situation in a heartbeat.

[usc52]

Originally Posted by unspokenrespect

I got 2 reasons why Shaw shouldn't be the starter. They are called Florida and Louisiana. We wouldn't even be playing Michigan if Thompson was the starter during those games. Spurrier didn't even allow Thompson back in during the Michigan game until it was time for him to save the day.

It doesn't matter though, Thompson will patiently wait for injury prone Shaw to hurt himself once again.

Lol this is the most ridiculous stattmement ever.


Posted from Cockytalk.com App for Android

[Don Giovanni]

Originally Posted by me4USC

Don G, I didn't see another thread on the same subject, and I did look. If I duplicated a thread, it was not intentional.

In my first post in this thread, I was talking about having several threads created to discuss the QB position. I don't know if you started one of them, but ok.

[me4USC]

Originally Posted by brat

What's the old line by Samuel Clemens, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."?

Stats are stats, but they can be deceiving, at times.

Without watching the game again and taking mountains of notes, there are so many other factors that have to be taken into consideration...

Where was the ball when Shaw and Thompson began their respective drives? If the ball was deep inside our own territory, it would be less likely a pass would be launched with an intention of it being for a TD. For instance, when Thompson came into the game, at the end, the ball position and the circumstances gave him an opportunity to throw for a TD. I still do not think SOS would have tried another FG, under any circumstance.

Shaw also had more plays where he was needed to run the ball, because our RB's got nada, and you really can't pass on every play or our QB is going to pay the price of so many blitzes he ain't gonna get up after many more hits like Thompson took at the end of the game.

Shaw had several passes on the last drive where he just needed to move us down the field and one where he had to pick up a first down, hardly one where you are going for a TD throw. Thompson had to have an incompletion to kill the clock. They all alter the perception of the hard, cold stats.

We have at least two good QB's now and SOS will use them both, determined on the situation of the game and the needed strength one may have over the other...do we need to run more nd keep the clock going...do we need to pass and get the ball down the field quickly...

Let it play out. It wasn't too many years ago we could barely find a QB who could throw a catchable forward pass and another time our starting QB ended the season playing defense. I'll take our current situation in a heartbeat.

Interesting post. Thanks.

[usc1]

Originally Posted by unspokenrespect

I got 2 reasons why Shaw shouldn't be the starter. They are called Florida and Louisiana. We wouldn't even be playing Michigan if Thompson was the starter during those games. Spurrier didn't even allow Thompson back in during the Michigan game until it was time for him to save the day.

It doesn't matter though, Thompson will patiently wait for injury prone Shaw to hurt himself once again.

Hope this post is a joke

[trapper82]

Originally Posted by usc1

Hope this post is a joke

If it is a joke its not funny, and I reported it for being an uncalled for attack on one of our own.

[Carolina_Harv]

Originally Posted by unspokenrespect

I got 2 reasons why Shaw shouldn't be the starter. They are called Florida and Louisiana. We wouldn't even be playing Michigan if Thompson was the starter during those games. Spurrier didn't even allow Thompson back in during the Michigan game until it was time for him to save the day.

It doesn't matter though, Thompson will patiently wait for injury prone Shaw to hurt himself once again.

Most asinine statement I have seen in quite some time.......Using this logic Murray should not be starting for UGA either b/c how we ripped them a new one......Or Johnny football b/c he lost two games........One player does not lose the game for you (in most cases).......

And last time I checked "Injury Prone Shaw" has led our program to the two most successful years in Gamecock Football history! He took a program struggling to find an identity on offense and made it into a winner! Hell one could make the argument that if Shaw stays healthy the whole year we never would have known what we have in Thompson.

[TheUSCMike]

Oh pooh, I say we start Dylan Shaw and if he doesn't work out Connor Thompson can take over.

[snoopcockycock]

i agree that the stats don't tell the WHOLE story, especially if you either skew them, or only use the stats of a single game. that is why they keep a running total. the stats of an entire year are a lot more accurate at telling the entire story. they still don't tell ALL of it, but seasonal stats paint a pretty accurate story, and career stats even better.
connor's seasonal and career stats are excellent, and even more so if you add into the equation his injuries. i went a bit too far making my points for why shaw should continue to be our starter, because i felt it was soooooooo disrespectful that any of our fans could turn on him after what he has done for the team, and this program as a whole. for me, that was just ungrateful.
i hate that shaw will miss the spring, but if it gets him all the way healthy for next season, so be it.

[ZenUSC]

Connor's play was good enough to win and remain in the game at the end but it was a very tough game; one of the toughest bowl games I've ever watched. Connor got hurt and Dylan came in and won it off the bench. Without two ecellent QBs we would have lost. Connor gained a hudred or so yards and passed for a bunch. He really looked danm good and played the bulk of the snaps and got us the bulk of our points. That last drive took both QBs and was maybe the best drive in a bowl game in USC history.

[GamecockInHell]

I guess I tend to look at it a little differently. What Shaw has done with the limited talent he has is remarkable. And if he continues to improve in the off season he will be the starter. The only question is whether he is the QB to take us to the next leve. I don't know if Thompson is either. Maybe Nosovitch or Connor is. All we can do is hope they all improve in the off-season and see what happens in the fall. During the meantime, we can watch for improvement in our basketball teams and get ready for another run to Omaha for the baseball team. After what seems like an eternity, life is finally pretty good for us Gamecocks.