Bonds & Clemens Not Voted into MLB HOF

[Tailfeathers]

Originally Posted by ccured

I really didnt mean to offend you earlier. Do you believe in first ballot hof. Or is someone either hof or they arent? I think they are or they arent i hate when people say they will vote for someone the second time around but not the first. Also you still have not answered me if yount should be in or not.

I really have no opinion on Yount. If I remember right he was great defensively so that may be why he's in. Just looking at his offensive numbers he's a stretch. Dawson being in is a travesty.

I like the selection process. i think it gives a player a fair look and of course there's always going to be that marginal player that is argued over.

[ccured]

I think chipper is hof but i think people are gonna be surprised by how many people thinl he isnt. Also i thonk if griffey hadnt played on that concrete field they called the kingdome he could be argued for GOAT. He was a machine on offense and defense. What did he end up with 650hr

[Tailfeathers]

Originally Posted by ccured

I think chipper is hof but i think people are gonna be surprised by how many people thinl he isnt. Also i thonk if griffey hadnt played on that concrete field they called the kingdome he could be argued for GOAT. He was a machine on offense and defense. What did he end up with 650hr

Chipper's OBP was over .400 and hit over .300 in 10K plus PA's. Over 1500 runs and RBI. There's no argument IMO.

[Coulwoodwarlord]

It's like this...............the guys who are worthy have got to wait. Everybody's ballot is screwed up right now.

[USCBatgirl21]

Originally Posted by Tailfeathers

Chipper? Chipper is first ballot. While I think his base running and defense left a lot to be desired he was a great hitter.

I agree. The point was in response to the initial statement that it was a tainted era, every should be suspect if even one is. If everyone in the steroid era is suspect that includes Jr Griffey and Chipper. But you'll never hear someone bring up that they played in the steroid era as it is brought up with regards to Piazza and others who no credible claims have been made against.

[USCBatgirl21]

If Maddux isn't voted in 1st ballot there are some serious problems.

[COCKYWOOD]

The Hall just lost their chance to put Murphy in! WTF! One of the best and classiest ever.

[cock13]

Shitty players used PEDs too. Lots and lots of shitty players used steroids. I think you look at who the best players of the era were, no matter what, because I guarantee you Bonds was hitting HRs off of pitchers who were juicing too. I mean, are we going to revoke people's acceptance into the HOF because they (EVERYONE) was using amphetamines so they could make it through long seasons? Should we not allow anyone who played in segregated leagues in either? People wouldn't have those numbers if they had to go against the 1930's equivalent of Bob Gibson...

My point is every era is "tainted", and this whole keeping people out because of suspicion of PED use (which wasn't even against the rules formally, was it? [i know it was illegal, but i don't think it was against the rules]), is basically nothing more than a bunch of swarmy baseball writers (I BLAME BOB COSTAS AND MIKE LUPICA) sniffing their farts and weeping for days of old where baseball was more popular

[Tailfeathers]

Originally Posted by cock13

Shitty players used PEDs too. Lots and lots of shitty players used steroids. I think you look at who the best players of the era were, no matter what, because I guarantee you Bonds was hitting HRs off of pitchers who were juicing too. I mean, are we going to revoke people's acceptance into the HOF because they (EVERYONE) was using amphetamines so they could make it through long seasons? Should we not allow anyone who played in segregated leagues in either? People wouldn't have those numbers if they had to go against the 1930's equivalent of Bob Gibson...

My point is every era is "tainted", and this whole keeping people out because of suspicion of PED use (which wasn't even against the rules formally, was it? [i know it was illegal, but i don't think it was against the rules]), is basically nothing more than a bunch of swarmy baseball writers (I BLAME BOB COSTAS AND MIKE LUPICA) sniffing their farts and weeping for days of old where baseball was more popular

I would argue taking amphetamines didn't change the game. Steroids did. Would anyone say caffeine or alcohol changed the game? Steroids took Bonds from avg 27 hrs per season to well over 40. His walk totals increased so drastically it's comical. Even desegregation didn't change the game. PED's did.

[usc90grad]

Bonds didn't juice...it was just a good diet and exercise regime

[cock13]

Originally Posted by Tailfeathers

I would argue taking amphetamines didn't change the game. Steroids did. Would anyone say caffeine or alcohol changed the game? Steroids took Bonds from avg 27 hrs per season to well over 40. His walk totals increased so drastically it's comical. Even desegregation didn't change the game. PED's did.

Amphetamines are a performance enhancing drug, guys weren't taking uppers in the dugouts for recreation. Also, desegregation absolutely changed the game.

However, Barry Bonds likely took steroids. When he was on steroids, he hit more home runs. These weren't super-secret, Barry-only steroids. He was hitting HRs off of pitchers who were also on steroids. "When everyone has herpes, it's like noone has herpes." Even when everyone was juicing, a few people flat-out dominated. Yes you had some Brady Andersons, but nobody is saying put him in the HoF, Bonds on the other hand kicked those other juicers' asses. It may have "changed the game", but everyone was on the same level, and these people still dominated. Treat it as a separate era if you want, but you can't just ignore the fact this happened and these people dominated.

[USCBatgirl21]

I think a lot of the problem people have with Barry is his attitude that because he is Barry Bonds, he shouldn't be questioned in the first place. NEVER in my life have I met a more conceited individual.

[Gyle41386]

Barry and the Giants deserved one another.

[cock13]

Originally Posted by USCBatgirl21

I think a lot of the problem people have with Barry is his attitude that because he is Barry Bonds, he shouldn't be questioned in the first place. NEVER in my life have I met a more conceited individual.

I think that's another horrible reason. It's horrible baseball writers (AGAIN I BLAME COSTAS AND LUPICA) who are sad because this athlete wasn't nice to them, and therefore he doesn't deserve the HoF because he didn't give them good quotes, blew them off, and wasn't Peyton Manning. The fact Barry Bonds was a jackass doesn't mean he wasn't the best baseball player *arguably* of his generation. These old windbags have too high of an opinion of themselves, which is hilarious when they rant against self-centered athletes.

[USCBatgirl21]

Originally Posted by Gyle41386

Barry and the Giants deserved one another.

Ain't that the damn truth!

[USCBatgirl21]

Barry wasn't just a jackass to writers. He was a total jackass to his teammates and fellow players.

[4Ever2Thee]

I hope they never get in, I want Pete rose in though

[USCBatgirl21]

Shoeless Joe needs to be in before ANYONE else of questionable esteem gets in.

[ccured]

Originally Posted by Tailfeathers

I would argue taking amphetamines didn't change the game. Steroids did. Would anyone say caffeine or alcohol changed the game? Steroids took Bonds from avg 27 hrs per season to well over 40. His walk totals increased so drastically it's comical. Even desegregation didn't change the game. PED's did.

amphetamines didn't change the game? Amphetamines cause increased alertness, decreased muscle fatigue, increased reaction time, cognitive function, increased endurance or at least ability to play when normally couldn't. They may not be performance enhancing but they are definitely performance altering. If you have players who are able to keep playing because the are hopped up on greenies versus someone who cant because they are clean that definitely effects the integrity of the game. Amphetamines have been illegal in this country for something like 25 years longer than anabolic steroids anyone using them should have their character question which is part of the voting process. I have even seen alcohol argued as performance enhancing for an alcoholic.
If you have ever been around a function alcoholic you will understand it. Some of them just need that little nip to keep from shaking. I will say though that isn't a big enough portion of the players to really be a concern but for a specific player it is possible.
Bonds was definitely juicing. Adults heads don't change size like that. Although it is arguable that he was HOF caliber before the steroids. Desegregation didn't change the game? I don't even know what to say about that.

My biggest problem with the HOF is the voting process. Petulant writers use it as a way to chide players who didn't get along with them. Either a player is a HOF player or not. I have a problem with guys saying I will vote for him but not his first year on the ballot he has to wait. The guy already waited 5 years get over yourself. The HOF is a museum. The whole steroid era should be represented. Just tell the story. Bonds was the best of the best. Dirty versus dirty. Even though I think Bonds and those guys should be in I can even get behind writers not voting for some people because they thing they were dirty but for writers just to send in a blank ballot to prove a point, those writers should have their votes stripped. One dude they were talking on the radio about has been voting for Jack Morris for 7 years. This year he didn't vote for him because "I wasn't feeling it". WTF is that you felt Jack Morris was HOF last year but not this year. Come On Man did he get worse last year or something.

[uscfwbfan]

Very sad that Murph didn't make it. Class guy all the way!