QB stats

[sporkgod50]

Originally Posted by Cock Kool-Aid

To address the general discussion in this thread: I don't need stats, which are easily manipulated, to tell me how both of our QB's play. I watched every game, most in person, and I trust my eyeballs.

Ah so you trust direct observation which is never influenced by emotion. The trick with stats (or observation, I supoose) is to find an impartial source.

[hubbarjm]

Connor under throws those long passes a lot, case and point the Georgia game this year Byrd had to come back to the ball on the first drive to make a incredible catch. So Thompson's throw to win the game in the bowl game wasn't a long ball? He threw that one very well.

[cofcgamecock9]

Originally Posted by me4USC

Some of you won't like this. Look at the bottom chart. Connor didn't complete any passes over 40 yards (4.7% of his total passes). He did complete 40% of the 35-39 yard passes, and that comprised 7.8% of his total passing. That's still a good stat, but to say that he led the nation (or beat Thompson) in attempted passes in a category in which he completed none of the passes is a little misleading.

That's not what I wanted to see. That's a fact.

The bottom line is that when he attempts the pass it impacts his completion percentage. If he doesn't complete the pass (as you pointed out) it impacts his completion % accordingly.

My only point, and it still stands COMPLETELY true even with what has been posted in this thread, is that the NOTION that Connor has a high completion % because he only throws short passes is incorrect. Because, if nothing else, this article and charts do show that he at least ATTEMPTS the longer passes as much as anyone else. And those ATTEMPTS impact his completion %.

[cofcgamecock9]

Question for me4usc and others..

If I say Connor Shaw is the best QB in the country, why do you feel the need to make sure it is disproven?? Isn't he a Gamecock??? What is the problem with a Gamecock fan feeling a bias towards a certain player??

me4usc, you certainly like Dylan. That is no secret. But I bet you can't find one thing in months of posts where I have said the first negative thing about Dylan. Not one. Why would I do that? He is a Gamecock. Why would I care if you think he is the best player to ever play the game???

And why do you feel the need to do this between Dylan and Connor??

If I said Devin Taylor was the best DE on our team this past year, would you go out of your way to prove I was wrong? Would you look up stats the way you do regarding Dylan/Connor? And if you would, then my question is why????????

We aren't talking about comparing a player at SC to a player at Clemson. We are talking about two Gamecocks.

If someone's favorite QB was Andrew Clifford and they thought he was the best QB on our team, why in the hell would you spend as much time as you do making sure that they knew that he wasn't??? Or, at the least, you would certainly spend time making sure that they knew that Andrew had this flaw in his game or that this stat was skewed.

Why in the hell do you do that??? I honestly don't get it.

I have been very pro-Connor because I think he has done a lot for this team. But in the whole time, I know that I have never ever said the first negative thing about Dylan Thompson or any other player.

Why would I do that?? If someone told me that they thought Mike Davis was going to be our best running back, why in the world would I feel the need to discredit Mike's accomplishments just because I might think Brandon Wilds is the better option??? Why wouldn't I just say that that I think Brandon Wilds is the best RB on our team and talk about his positive attributes??

I gotta tell you, I will never understand how some of you feel the need to put down (whether you are doing it "nicely" or bashing) players on our own damn team.

[Don Giovanni]

Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9

Question for me4usc and others..

If I say Connor Shaw is the best QB in the country, why do you feel the need to make sure it is disproven?? Isn't he a Gamecock??? What is the problem with a Gamecock fan feeling a bias towards a certain player??

me4usc, you certainly like Dylan. That is no secret. But I bet you can't find one thing in months of posts where I have said the first negative thing about Dylan. Not one. Why would I do that? He is a Gamecock. Why would I care if you think he is the best player to ever play the game???

And why do you feel the need to do this between Dylan and Connor??

If I said Devin Taylor was the best DE on our team this past year, would you go out of your way to prove I was wrong? Would you look up stats the way you do regarding Dylan/Connor? And if you would, then my question is why????????

We aren't talking about comparing a player at SC to a player at Clemson. We are talking about two Gamecocks.

If someone's favorite QB was Andrew Clifford and they thought he was the best QB on our team, why in the hell would you spend as much time as you do making sure that they knew that he wasn't??? Or, at the least, you would certainly spend time making sure that they knew that Andrew had this flaw in his game or that this stat was skewed.

Why in the hell do you do that??? I honestly don't get it.

I have been very pro-Connor because I think he has done a lot for this team. But in the whole time, I know that I have never ever said the first negative thing about Dylan Thompson or any other player.

Why would I do that?? If someone told me that they thought Mike Davis was going to be our best running back, why in the world would I feel the need to discredit Mike's accomplishments just because I might think Brandon Wilds is the better option??? Why wouldn't I just say that that I think Brandon Wilds is the best RB on our team and talk about his positive attributes??

I gotta tell you, I will never understand how some of you feel the need to put down (whether you are doing it "nicely" or bashing) players on our own damn team.

The biggest problem with all of the debating over Shaw and Thompson is that both sides are wrong. Tommy Beecher should be the starting QB.

Sincerely,

Jaydogg

[sporkgod50]

Originally Posted by Don Giovanni

The biggest problem with all of the debating over Shaw and Thompson is that both sides are wrong. Tommy Beecher should be the starting QB.

Sincerely,

Jaydogg

that was chuckle worthy. ha

[ReadR00ster]

Originally Posted by FanofCarolina1

Damiere's catch in the UGA game was a thing of beauty also.

You mean the ball that was under-thrown and intercepted and Byrd ripped it out of Rambo's hands?

[Lalli25]

Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9

The bottom line is that when he attempts the pass it impacts his completion percentage. If he doesn't complete the pass (as you pointed out) it impacts his completion % accordingly.

My only point, and it still stands COMPLETELY true even with what has been posted in this thread, is that the NOTION that Connor has a high completion % because he only throws short passes is incorrect. Because, if nothing else, this article and charts do show that he at least ATTEMPTS the longer passes as much as anyone else. And those ATTEMPTS impact his completion %.

You are using 4 games of observantions to make a point, that is why you are being shot down. Read the actual study and why the stats don't tell the while story. People who watched every game could see he didn't throw deep consistently and when he did he didn't complete it often.

[Lalli25]

Originally Posted by me4USC

Some of you won't like this. Look at the bottom chart. Connor didn't complete any passes over 40 yards (4.7% of his total passes). He did complete 40% of the 35-39 yard passes, and that comprised 7.8% of his total passing. That's still a good stat, but to say that he led the nation (or beat Thompson) in attempted passes in a category in which he completed none of the passes is a little misleading.

That's not what I wanted to see. That's a fact.

I also have to wonder which games were used. Obviously all of them weren't, because Thompson complete longer passes than 19 yards in more than one game, yet he is credited with none at all. Did they leave out ECU, Clemson, and the Outback?

As I have posted they only used 4 USC games. Here from my early post.

4 games: Arizona, Auburn, Oklahoma, Oregon State, South Carolina
http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...charting-intro

This study proves nothing, even thought CofC won't acknowledge the flaw.

[me4USC]

In the end, here is the distribution of teams for which we charted games:

• 12 games: Alabama
• 10 games: LSU
• 9 games: Oregon
• 8 games: Stanford, West Virginia
• 7 games: Florida, Georgia, Texas A&M, USC, Washington State
• 6 games: Kansas State
• 5 games: Florida State, Mississippi State, Notre Dame
• 4 games: Arizona, Auburn, Oklahoma, Oregon State, South Carolina
• 3 games: Baylor, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Michigan State, Nebraska, Ohio State, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Texas, UCLA, Washington, Wisconsin
• 2 games: Arizona State, BYU, California, Fresno State, Louisville, Miami, Michigan, Nevada, Oklahoma State, San Diego State, Syracuse, TCU, Texas Tech, UL-Monroe, Utah
• 1 game: Arkansas, Arkansas State, Boise State, Bowling Green, Central Florida, Colorado, Duke, East Carolina, Eastern Washington, Kent State, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Maryland, Missouri, Navy, North Texas, Northern Illinois, Northwestern, Ohio, Purdue, Rutgers, San Jose State, SMU, Toledo, Tulsa, UL-Lafayette, Utah State, Wake Forest, Western Kentucky

Here's the breakdown. We got only four of our games in this study. I'm guessing that LSU, Georgia, and Florida were three of those, since they had 10 and 7 games counted. ECU had only 1 game counted, and that would not have been the one with us, or their stats would truly stink. Michigan State had 3 games counted, and they were probably regular season, not the bowl game. Clemson had 3 counted, and I'm just about sure that ours wasn't one of them, since we aren't in the same conference. My guess for our fourth game is Arizona. Now I understand the stats.

[me4USC]

Originally Posted by cofcgamecock9

Question for me4usc and others..

If I say Connor Shaw is the best QB in the country, why do you feel the need to make sure it is disproven?? Isn't he a Gamecock??? What is the problem with a Gamecock fan feeling a bias towards a certain player??

me4usc, you certainly like Dylan. That is no secret. But I bet you can't find one thing in months of posts where I have said the first negative thing about Dylan. Not one. Why would I do that? He is a Gamecock. Why would I care if you think he is the best player to ever play the game???

And why do you feel the need to do this between Dylan and Connor??

If I said Devin Taylor was the best DE on our team this past year, would you go out of your way to prove I was wrong? Would you look up stats the way you do regarding Dylan/Connor? And if you would, then my question is why????????

We aren't talking about comparing a player at SC to a player at Clemson. We are talking about two Gamecocks.

If someone's favorite QB was Andrew Clifford and they thought he was the best QB on our team, why in the hell would you spend as much time as you do making sure that they knew that he wasn't??? Or, at the least, you would certainly spend time making sure that they knew that Andrew had this flaw in his game or that this stat was skewed.

Why in the hell do you do that??? I honestly don't get it.

I have been very pro-Connor because I think he has done a lot for this team. But in the whole time, I know that I have never ever said the first negative thing about Dylan Thompson or any other player.

Why would I do that?? If someone told me that they thought Mike Davis was going to be our best running back, why in the world would I feel the need to discredit Mike's accomplishments just because I might think Brandon Wilds is the better option??? Why wouldn't I just say that that I think Brandon Wilds is the best RB on our team and talk about his positive attributes??

I gotta tell you, I will never understand how some of you feel the need to put down (whether you are doing it "nicely" or bashing) players on our own damn team.

This isn't about you, regardless of what you may think. The OP said, "Interesting article on QBs, pass distribution, and completion percentage. Some good notes/stats on Shaw and Thompson:" He included BOTH quarterbacks in his original post, therefore, the discussion can include the stats of BOTH quarterbacks. Please stop calling me out by name. I'm not bashing anyone. I am interpreting stats in context.

[Dizzy01]

How many more of these threads do we have to have where one group feels the need to promote one QB by trashing the other?

Have we hit 506 threads yet where we can dump this and move onto something else? Before long someone's going to break it down based on who tapes their ankles better and then rip the other guy for using the wrong color tape.

[me4USC]

Originally Posted by Dizzy01

How many more of these threads do we have to have where one group feels the need to promote one QB by trashing the other?

Have we hit 506 threads yet where we can dump this and move onto something else? Before long someone's going to break it down based on who tapes their ankles better and then rip the other guy for using the wrong color tape.

I like all four of our QBs, and I haven't bashed any of them. Stats were introduced by this thread, and I'm very interested in that aspect of the game. Yes, I freely admit that I prefer to see Thompson play, but I do not want Shaw benched. I would like to see both of them used.

[Cock Kool-Aid]

Originally Posted by sporkgod50

Ah so you trust direct observation which is never influenced by emotion. The trick with stats (or observation, I supoose) is to find an impartial source.

I have no emotion.

[b381l]

Connor's arm strength is below average.....so he is restricted as what passes he can throw. The vast majority of his passes are less than 10 yards or deep. However, he will throw mid-range play side passes usually near the sideline. He almost never throws mid-range crossing routes over LB. And he absolutely never throws mid-range opposite side passes. He just doesn't have the arm strength. So what defenses do is put their LB near the LOS to help with runs and short passes. They are not concerned with passes over the middle.....it just doesn't happen. And even if it were to happen once, they are willing to give Connor that pass because it happens so seldom. In other words, defenses only have to cover slightly less than half the field. Connor has had some success deep because most teams don't honor the deep ball and he catches them cheating up close.

Dylan has the arm strength to throw those mid range timing passes anywhere on the field. Therefore, defenses can't put their LB and/or safeties near the LOS.
This opens up our running game and it also helps because defenses can't cheat on some of their coverages.

Consider this....in 2010, Garcia had good success throwing mid range passes because he did have the arm strength. Granted, he had Alshon to throw to, but he still had to have the arm strength to be able to do that. This really helped because defenses couldn't play up close and Marcus had much better running success as well.

[pantera17]

Wow this is just not right. "nobody throws more frequently than Connor shaw"

When Connor was In he never threw much. Of course his % of longer passes would be high. Because he didn't throw much anyways.

If you actually take the number of long balls those qbs threw during the season, and not their % Connor would probably be torwards the end of the list. I can probably count the times he's went long on two hands.

Edit.

This isn't a knock on CS cause it's not Shaw's fault he doesn't get more long bombs called for him.

[GamecockSuperFan]

Originally Posted by FanofCarolina1

When you're primarily a zone read offense and not a spread offense, your passing game is going to be mediocre.

Smh. A zone read offense..... Nice.

[pantera17]

Originally Posted by GamecockSuperFan

Smh. A zone read offense..... Nice.

Lol.

[GamecockSuperFan]

We are a spread to run first offense that utilizes the many advantages of the read option.

If people payed attention to what's going on though, We're actually running alot more than that. Alot of different wrinkles off of the zone read to keep us from being so predictable.

[boness]

Shaw is a decnt player who when halthy is a legit running threat however he is injury prone thus limiting that run threat.
his throwing threat is virtually non existant. he is typically around 200 or so per game via the air facing defences that absolutely sell out for the run and dare him to beat them.
his current level of production is based on nearly two years of pre season, regular season and post season first team practice reps. Dillion has reached his current level of effectiveness with two weeks of first team practice reps in total.
i am one of those who believe dispite our offence not being taylored for DT's play style we are still far better off with him at QB now and it stands to reason he would benifitt further with consistent first team reps and the o taylored for his skills s it was for shaw when he took over from garcia. indeed the o garcia ran with added pure drop back would i thing be very effective for DT.
additionall while DT is pretty much useless with shaw in at QB the opposite isn't true. Shaw can provide a threat in the game with DT as he can threaten as a runner, likely as a reciever and threatens with the throw option from the slot, wildcat or rb positions.