Gamecocks, Heels on radar for Charlotte kickoff game

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by bryarx

Someone want to summarize what the anger between us and the ACC is? Growing up as a post-ACC Gamecock, I view it fondly - because we are in the SEC which is a blessing.

Originally Posted by brat

There were several reasons why we left the ACC.

A double standard from the ACC toward USC than any other school was a key element of friction.

If a student-athlete's eligibility came into question, he had to stop playing until it was determined if he really was eligible to play or not. Sounds reasonable until you realize that this was for USC only, while any other ACC school could allow their kids to keep playing unless it was later determined something was wrong. This stemmed from a situation that was created by certain ACC'ers themselves which is mentioned in the next papragraph.

Right before Frank's death some ACC officials met with him and told him that they had plotted to keep out of the league what was Frank's biggest recruit ever (Mike Grosso..some considered the second highest rated HS kid his senior year behind one Lew Alcindor aka Kareem Abdul Jabbar). UNC and Duke, among many others, wanted this kid, too, but he snubbed them in favor of us.

He fell 10 points shy of his SAT to be eligible to play ball his Frosh year (they couldn't play varsity sports then, anyway). He enrolled at USC and was working to get his grades up to be able to play the following year. His uncle ran and owned a small bar in Baltimore, I think, and he (the uncle) was the only employee. He paid for tuition for his nephew and wrote it on a check that had the bar name on it instead of a check in his personal name. The ACC determined that was a violation and refused to ever let him play at USC. He transferred to Cincinnati, I believe, blew out his knee and never had the career most thought he would.

UNC was found to have been allowing, for years, two kids each year, that did not meet standards to enroll at that school and play football. Paul Dietzel, who had been trying to slightly lower the bar to compete with the SEC schools and other conferences for local kids, found out about it and asked the same thing be allowed at USC. His request was denied. When he protested about UNC doing it, they stopped, but was never penalized for their own violations of ACC law.

USC was the league doormat for ages in most sports, basketball being the king sport in the ACC, made that all the more pleasing to the Tobacco Roaders. When Frank built a team that started beating them, it inflamed their hatred of him and us.

Some say that leaving the ACC was the worst thing we ever did. If you were alive back then and old enough to have to remember those days, you would disagree vehemently. Think of the rivalry and hatred most feel toward Clempson. Multiply that by four or five times and you would be close to the hatred the ACC had for us and we for them, basically all because we simply wanted equal treatment and for the ACC not to be ruled by, UNC and Duke. The famous fight with Maryland? I was actually there, because as a kid I was at almost every home game. It's cause was due to Maryland players throwing elbows all game long and Lefty did nothing about his kids doing it. With 5 minutes left in the game, we were winning by about 25 points or so and a Maryland player took a cheap shot at Rick Adylett. Enough was enough and our kids let them have it. After that point and the very unflattering Sports Illustrated issue on John Roche and the team, it was impossible to stay in the league. Each time our kids traveled, let alone fans, they were cursed with extreme profanity, trash thrown at them, heated coins, gum tossed in their hair, threats were made and cruel taunts were made about Frankie McGuire, Frank's boy.

Even back then many, many Clempson fans pulled for USC in basketball because, they too hated the ACC teams. In fact, Clempson had agreed to pull out with USC to try to force the ACC to change. USC wanted to do a joint withdrawal, at the same press conference, but Clempson asked us to do it in the morning and they would follow in the afternoon. The story is that word got out to ACC people about what was about to happen and they met with Clempson and told them to stay in the ACC or they would be turned into the NCAA for another series of football recruiting violations. Stay and everything would be forgotten. Whatever the cause, they did not keep their word to us and we left the ACC alone. I vividly remember that day and the USC fans were joyous, such was the hatred of the ACC. It was like a heavy weight had been lifted from us. We were tired of being the red headed step child. To this day, I despise the ACC and am angry that we ever play any of them, in any sport, unless it is in a bowl game or NCAA's where we have no choice, and I even include Clempson in that group. That conference could rot for all I care. If Clempson had followed through, I believe our rivalry would not be nearly as bitter as it is today.

Few recall that a few years after we left the ACC and before GT joined (thus, still 7 original schools left, we approached the ACC to rejoin as the SAT standards had been dropped to a level similar to what we had wanted and we also felt some of the raw emotions had subsided by then. The ACC
agreed to let us back in if we did the following:

Pay a fee to be readmitted (nothing wrong with that)

Not be eligible to play for any ACC title for at least 3 years (no reason for that other than spite)

We had to repay the ACC all the money they would have gotten from us for gates, TV appearances, etc, from the moment we left the conference, just as if we had never left and even though they did nothing to earn that money. That probably would have added a couple million to pay out, at least. (blackmail)

We had to offer a public apology to the ACC for ever leaving and admit we were wrong in doing so (humiliation)

All of that was in The State paper and I remember it well, too.

That was proof that the ACC would still treat us like garbage.

So, that settles that and anyone who misses the ACC either has a bad memory, forgives easier than Mother Theresa, or wasn't alive in those days. The best day, despite the difficulty of competition, USC ever had in sports was the day we joined the SEC for they treat us as full equals. The second best day was the day we left the ACC.

As for Frank's last years? Well, he still had fine players still on the roster, at first, after we left the ACC (and he was dead set against it)..Mike Dunleavy, Kevin Joyce, Brian Winters, Alex English, etc. and we did alright for the first few years, but as those groups graduated, it was more and more difficult to recruit as an independent and the records began to suffer. Some people you do not force out and put to pasture, like Joe Paterno at Penn State and Frank was that for us at USC. He would not have coached much longer and he should have gone out in style, but that was not the case. Sad. The game had not passed Frank by, but he had not been able to get nearly the talent he once had.

Originally Posted by brat

Glad to help. It is like, I suppose, listening to your parents or grandparents talking about the Depression or WWII. It is very difficult to explain things to get the entire gist or impact of those times for those not yet born.

One other thing I felt interesting is that whenever USC brought up a motion or suggestion to the ACC that might improve things or to lead them down another path to consider how things were presently being done, almost without exception the vote was 0-7 against us.

Some may say (ACC'ers) that was because we brought up bad ideas and motions, but to me, the chances of that always happening is more evidence of collusion and or strong arm tactics by the Tobacco Road schools. How? Well, is was next to impossible to get anything passed with a virtual block vote of the NC schools (4 of 8 teams). When schools like Maryland or Virginia (we already know Clempson wasn't treated too much better than us, except they seldom rocked the boat, their "saving grace" refused to go against those same schools, they could easily have been neutered just like we were by those same NC schools. They either could go along with the program or leave, like us, so they took the safe way out. I guess that wasn't a shock in that the two SC schools were more football oriented anyway, so why change things?

So, those spineless schools stayed and only the recent expansion of the league has watered down the death grip UNC and Duke have held on the ACC since the beginning. Heck, it only took an extra 35 years or so.

We were the squeaking wheel, so to speak. We did not get the grease, we got a hatchet right between the eyes. Still, with all the suffering we had since then (especially the pre SEC days), it was worth it, because we would still be the villain of the ACC to those wine and cheese people.

SC, the state, has a history of not taking crap from anyone. We did the right thing, the only thing. The funny thing is, to this day (admit it or not) I think it safe to say most of the Clempsonites would commit mayhem to get into the SEC and we should always remember the backstabbing they gave us and forever fight against that travesty should expansion talk ever come up. If the school President, BOT, or AD, does not stand against such a move, they should be dragged from their offices and tarred and feathered on the spot...if they are lucky.

We should never play the ACC or do anything, however small, to benefit them until they offer us a public apology for their treatment of us back in the day and admit they were the real cause of the strife.

Brat wrote this several years ago, sums it up rather well

[brat]

Deleted by brat.

[Jwilson]

Originally Posted by GamecockMomSC

So you want to cancel the games with Clemson?

Actually, it'd suit me just fine if we never played them again. Looks to me like going forward, them playing us only can add to their relevancy anywhere.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by GamecockMomSC

There is a lot on the 'net. Long story short, the Tobacco Road/NC based schools rule the ACC. We left due to their influence in 1971. We were actually a founding member. Before we joined the SEC in 1991, we tried to rejoin the ACC. There were some behind the scenes shenanigans. Clemson was supposed to get us back in the ACC. They backstabbed us, shockingly. We joined the SEC, and they will never get in the SEC due to said backstabbing. There is more, but those are the cliff notes.

they also stabbed us in the back when we first left, from what I understand they had agreed to leave with us because of the same issues, then they "changed their minds" at the last second

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by brat

There were several reasons why we left the ACC.

A double standard from the ACC held toward USC more than any other school was a key element of friction. If a student-athlete's eligibility came into question, he had to stop playing until it was determined if he really was eligible to play or not. Sounds reasonable until you realize that this was for USC only, while any other ACC school could allow their kids to keep playing unless it was later determined something was wrong. This stemmed from a situation that was created by certain ACC'ers themselves which is mentioned in the next paragraph.

Right before Frank McGuire's death, some ACC officials met with him and told him that they had plotted to keep out of the league what
was Frank's biggest recruit ever (Mike Grosso..some considered the second highest rated HS kid his senior year behind one Lew Alcindor aka Kareem Abdul Jabbar). They came to ask for his forgiveness before he died. Hell, people from UNC & Duke came to USC to meet with President Thomas Jones in the early 1960's when they heard he was about to hire McGuire. They tried to talk him out of it, saying it would be bad for the ACC.

UNC and Duke, among many others, wanted this kid, too, but he snubbed them in favor of us. He enrolled at USC and was looking forward to being able to play the following year. Grosso and the other Freshman that came to Carolina with him, routed the varsity when they played.
His uncle ran and owned a small bar and he (the uncle) was the one and only employee. He paid for the tuition of his nephew and wrote it on a
check that had the bar name on it instead of a check in his personal name. This was not a violation by rules of the NCAA.

Turns out that Eddie Cameron, of Duke, who had hatred for McGuire, got ACC support to create a new rule to circumvent things
and hurt McGuire, USC, and this innocent kid. Duke and many other ACC teams recruited Grosso, but were spurned by him.
Grosso scored a 789 on his SAT. Back then, Freshmen vould not play varsity sports, so he came to play on
the Frosh basketball team. Nine months after his enrollment, the ACC created a new rule saying that any student with less than 800 on the SAT could never play in the ACC. To further things, the ACC made an internal review of his recruitment ) I read a version (which I cannot verify the source as being accurate...namely off one of the ACC school sites discussing the matter months ago) of this where ACC people barged in on the Grosso family in the middle of the night and gave them the third degree to pressure them in hopes of uncovering some viable evidence and deemed that since the check was written on a business account instead of a personal account, that a violation had been made, as if to somehow justify their new standards held against Grosso. While the ACC investigators did not find real proof (admission of guilt or paper trail of money being sent to the family, etc.), their investigators decided the family could not afford to pay his tuition. If anything, that substaniates why Grosso's parents did not pay it and his uncle did, with money from his own business of which he had no employees, thus not hurting anyone.

He transferred to Cincinnati, blew out his knee, and never had the career most thought he would. I read an article recently about him, written a couple of years ago, where he said he has had a difficult life with relationships and such and until the last few years remained haunted by what happened to him and he never forgave the ACC for doing what they did to him.

UNC was found to have been allowing for many years, two kids each season that did not meet standards to enroll at that school and play football. Paul Dietzel, who had been trying to slightly lower the bar to compete with the SEC schools and other conferences for local kids, found out
about it and asked the same thing to be permitted at USC. His request was denied. When he protested about UNC doing it, they stopped, but was
never penalized for their own violations of ACC law.

The funny thing was, USC was decades ahead of its time trying to convince the ACC that football was the real cash cow of the conference (and all of college sports), not basketball. We were sick and tired of losing our best in state players to the SEC because the requirements were significantly higher, set by the ACC, not the NCAA. We wanted to meet the lower standards so that our student-athletes could get into school more easily and improve the product brand of the ACC. We were denied this attempt and it came to be that every time we brought a subject up for a vote that we introduced in an attempt to help the ACC, it was voted down in unanimous fashion by the other schools, 0-7. This was the result of, no doubt, more collusion and secret arm twisting by UNC and Duke.

USC was the league doormat for ages in most sports, basketball being the king sport in the ACC, made that all the more pleasing to the Tobacco Roaders. When Frank built a team that started beating them, it inflamed their hatred of him and us and the state of South Carolina.

Some very few people say that leaving the ACC was the worst thing we ever did. If you were alive back then and old enough to have to remember those days, you would disagree, vehemently. Think of the rivalry and hatred most feel toward Clempson. Multiply that by four or five times
and you would be close to the hatred the ACC had for us and we for them, basically all because we simply wanted equal treatment and for the ACC not to be ruled by, UNC and Duke.

The famous fight with Maryland? I was actually there, because as a kid, I was at every home game. It's cause was due to Maryland players throwing elbows all game long and Lefty did nothing to stop his kids doing it. With 5 minutes left in the game, we were winning by about 25 points, nearing 100 points, and a Maryland player took a cheap shot at Rick Adylett, hitting him in the head, as drove in for a lay up. Enough was enough, and our kids let them have it. Lefty got slugged in the melee, just what he deserved for not pulling his cheap shot artists with the elbows.

After that point and the very unflattering Sports Illustrated issue on John Roche and the team, it was impossible to stay in the league. Each time our kids traveled, let alone fans, they were cursed with extreme profanity, hung Roche in effigy, had trash thrown at them, heated coins, gum tossed in their hair, McGuire was spit upon, threats were made and cruel taunts were made about McGuire's son, Frankie, Jr., a young teenager who had a severe case of MS and was mentally handicapped with the mental capacity of about a two year old. Several times, Frank had to be restrained from going into the stands at away games (Clempson) because of those taunts.

When USC won the 1971 ACC basketball tournament, 52-51 on a last second shot, ten seconds after the game concluded, someone pulled the plug on the broadcast, refusing to show the Gamecock fans or their team celebrating their biggest and best victory. That is the only time that has ever happened, so it was intentional. You bet your ass if UNC won that game, every celebration, every award would have been broadcast, like it has been every other year and they probably would have interviewed the guy who had the job to lock the building up at night. Additionally, there were co-MVP's of the tournament. Only one award was available at the end of the game, of course. Instead of giving it to John Roche, the guy on the team that just won the tournament, they gave it to the other guy, on the team that lost, who played for UNC. Saw an article about Roche not too long ago and when asked about that, he mentioned he never received his award. He really didn't care since he doesn't display any of his memorabilia.

Even back then many, many Clempson fans pulled for USC in basketball because, they too, hated the ACC teams and they couldn't beat any of the powers. In fact, Clempson had agreed to pull out with USC to try to force the ACC to change. USC wanted to do a joint withdrawal, at the same press conference, but Clempson asked us to do it in the morning and they would follow in the afternoon. The story is that word got out to ACC people about what was about to happen and they met with Clempson and told them to stay in the ACC or they would be turned into the NCAA for another series of football recruiting violations. Stay and everything would be forgotten. They did not keep their word to us, nor inform us they were backing out of their worthless word, and we left the ACC, alone, with a knife in our back as a parting gift. So much for tuesting an ancient enemy. I still vividly remember that day and the USC fans were so joyous, such was the hatred of the ACC. It was like a heavy weight had been lifted from us. Freedom!!! We were tired of being the red headed step child. To this day, I despise the ACC and am angry that we ever play any of them, in any sport, unless it is in a bowl game or NCAA's where we have no choice. I even include Clempson in that group. If Clempson had followed through, I believe our rivalry would not be nearly as bitter as it is today.

Some forget (and this incident was before my time following the team) was that Duke, again, got pissed at McGuire and USC and actually was allowed by the ACC not to play us for one basketball season. If we had tried to ask for such a thing, you know darn well it would have been refused. Shortly before we decided to leave the ACC, Maryland and a few other ACC teams were making comments that they would refuse to play us again as long as McGuire was our coach.

Not many recall that a few years after we left the ACC and before GT joined (the 7 original schools remained), we approached the ACC to rejoin as the SAT standards had been dropped to a level similar to what we had wanted (two months after we left the conference) and we also felt some of the raw emotions and bitterness may have subsided by then.

The ACC agreed to let us back in if we did the following:

Pay a fee to be readmitted (nothing wrong with that)

Not be eligible to play for any ACC title for at least 3 years. (no reason for that other than spite)

We had to repay the ACC all the money they would have gotten from us for gates, TV appearances, etc, from the moment we left the conference, just as if we had never gone and even though they did nothing to earn that money. That probably would have added a couple million to pay out, at least. That was lots of money, back then. ( punitive greed)

We had to offer a public apology to the ACC for ever leaving and admit we were wrong in doing so. (humiliation)

Promise to never leave the ACC, again. ( subjugation and removal of our last right of protest)

All of that was in The State Newspaper or The Columbia Record and I remember reading it as if it appeared yesterday. Correctly so, we told the ACC to stick their sanctimonious acquiescence in an orifice of their choosing and we continued on the difficult road of Independence for many more years.

That was proof that the ACC would still treat us like garbage. The best day, despite the difficulty of competition, USC ever had in sports was the day we joined the SEC for they treat us as full equals. The second best day was the day we left the ACC only because it eventually led us to the SEC.

dang I hope you have that saved in a word doc somewhere so you dont have to retype it every time

[bigduff32]

Originally Posted by ccured

I don't understand forcing rivalries. We have played them 11 times in 40 years. And the record is 6-5 us in those 11. Forget them.

Yeah I mean why would they even play us? "that is more of a domination, my kids won't live long enough to see that become a rivalry"

[bigduff32]

I'd rather us play UNC every year than swapping furman/wofford as a warmup game like they do in tater town

[GamecockMomSC]

Originally Posted by St. Louis Gamecock

I remember those ACC days very well (I still have the Charleston newspaper of us winning the ACC Basketball Tourney title in 1971).

I also remember Clemson agreeing to leave the ACC with us and then backing out at the last minute (if memory serves me correctly).

I kind of agree with what you’re saying, but I do like me some Duke basketball, especially when they beat the Heels. I’d be OK dropping Clemson permanently (in all sports), but I wouldn’t mind keeping other founding ACC members for a while longer – that is, until the ACC totally disbands!

My dad has a clock with all the ACC schools on it from the 1960s. It is weird seeing the Gamecock on it with the other ACC schools.

Closet Duke basketball fan here, too. I wouldn't pull for them against an SEC team, but other than that I heart Blue Devils basketball.

[GamecockMomSC]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

they also stabbed us in the back when we first left, from what I understand they had agreed to leave with us because of the same issues, then they "changed their minds" at the last second

Yep. I knew that. I was trying not to say too much because we aren't in smack.

[Jwilson]

Brat only hit the high spots. There were so many slights, in games, where other teams would get calls. Anybody want to recap the famous NC State game where they got 3 minutes to play the last 10 seconds? Google up Paul Dietzel and find his dealings with them. They were doing the same thing in football that they were doiing in basketball. We couldn't get many of the good in-state players in school due to the higher requirements. Anyone remember why Stanly Morgan ended up at UT. Google up Paul Dietzel's account of the last dealings with the ACC which was the straw that broke the camels back as far as leaving the ACC. I'm old enough to have witnessed the crap they pulled on us for years and years. I, personally, would not want us to do anything that would even remotely be good for that stinkhole of a conference.

And no, I'm not really pissed. I'm enormously pissed. Still.

[GamecockMomSC]

To Brat:

Awesome post!!! Points coming...

[OldPat]

Pls help this slow mind absorb this wonderful proposal.
We give up a home game and play Tobacco Road on their turf every year, and this benefits us???
Guess my mind isn't the one that's slow.
Tobacco Road NEVER agrees to anything that's not in THEIR best interest. NEVER - unless you're Notre Dame. LOL.
Those juices they're stewing in are of their own making so turn up the heat & watch 'em jump.
Give these backstabbers relevance? Not on your life.

[Mt. Lattimore]

Be interesting to hear Ray Tanner's take.

After all, he does have a history with the state of NC.

[ReadR00ster]

I hate the idea when we are supposed to have a home game. If it was supposed to be an away game for us I'd be for it. But we didn't put on this money into our stadium and surrounding area to go play somewhere else.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by GamecockMomSC

Yep. I knew that. I was trying not to say too much because we aren't in smack.

what you and I posted was not smack, now if we had said something along the lines of... "That bunch of low down, lilly livered, ice cream eating, barney purple wearing, sheep molesting, tractor driving, player paying, woman beating, non jet ski driving, towel rod swinging, momma sleeping, baccer dippin, cow tipping fools stabbed us in the back when we left"


that would be smack, and would need to be in the smack forum....but since we didnt say that, we should be ok

[GamecockMomSC]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

what you and I posted was not smack, now if we had said something along the lines of... "That bunch of low down, lilly livered, ice cream eating, barney purple wearing, sheep molesting, tractor driving, player paying, woman beating, non jet ski driving, towel rod swinging, momma sleeping, baccer dippin, cow tipping fools stabbed us in the back when we left"


that would be smack, and would need to be in the smack forum....but since we didnt say that, we should be ok

Good to know.

[GamecockMomSC]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lattimore

Be interesting to hear Ray Tanner's take.

After all, he does have a history with the state of NC.

Coach Tanner is a NC State man. He probably has as much love for UNC as I do for Clemson. UNC is top dog when is comes to pulling the strings in the ACC.

[OldPat]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lattimore

Be interesting to hear Ray Tanner's take.

After all, he does have a history with the state of NC.

So did Frank McGuire, sport.

[Mt. Lattimore]

I think Tanner would be up for it, considering that NC is a heavily recruited place.

[Mt. Lattimore]

Originally Posted by OldPat

So did Frank McGuire, sport.

So does Coach Spurrier, pal.