Post moves - McHale, Duncan, or Olajuwon

[Gaichon]

Originally Posted by b381l

Their post moves would have been different because they didn't play the same position.

Not true and still not the point. Why so argumentative?

[Schecter]

Hakeem.

[CoverTwo]

There is a reason all these players go to Hakeem for lessons.

[OldPat]

Originally Posted by Gaichon

Fair point, and normally I'd say PF, but just think of it purely from a post-moves perspective. McHale had his up and under thing, Olajuwon had the Dream Shake, etc.

If I were building a roster, I'd actually have McHale as my 6th man.

Post-moves perspective? OK. One game - McHale because of his competitiveness. Long haul - Olajuwon for his durability.

But remember, K Mc could only work his magic 'cause Parrish would clear out and shoot that mid-range jumper from outside. Add Bird's passing skills and you had one of the best frontcourts of all time.

LOL. Just remembered one of McHale's teammates nicknamed him 'The Black Hole' because once you passed the ball in to him, it never came back out.

Gotta consider the source tho. Danny Ainge never met a shot he didn't like either. He was just pissed 'cause he couldn't hit 54-55% like McHale.

For the long haul, I'd pick Hakeem for his strength, durability and rebounding prowess. Gotta remember you have defensive post-moves as well as offensive. And it seems like I remember McHale and Duncan having more injury issues than Hakeem.

[spareparts]

You simply could not defend Kevin McHale in his prime.

Olajuwon learned this more than a few times, including a championship series that I saw live in the Boston Garden. One of the most intense sports experiences of my life.

So I WOULD vote for McHale.

But McHale said that Duncan was better at low post moves than he was. That says alot.

So I picked Tim Duncan.

Also, props to the videos because I got to see Greg Kite. Any day that starts off with a Greg Kite video can't be too bad.

[Gaichon]

Originally Posted by CoverTwo

There is a reason all these players go to Hakeem for lessons.

Take it FWIW, but Bill Simmons on Grantland said,

"You know which player draws the most "Can you cut me a tape of his low-post moves so I can show my players?" requests from high school coaches to NBA Entertainment? That's right … McHale. I spent two pages in my NBA book describing McHale's Chinese-food-menu catalog of low-post moves (an astonishing 12 variations in all).8 You can't say that there was a better low-post player than Kevin McHale. It's factually inaccurate. If you disagree, go find me a season in which Hakeem shot 60 percent from the field, then get back to me. McHale had two in a row. "

[Gaichon]

Originally Posted by OldPat

Post-moves perspective? OK. One game - McHale because of his competitiveness. Long haul - Olajuwon for his durability.

But remember, K Mc could only work his magic 'cause Parrish would clear out and shoot that mid-range jumper from outside. Add Bird's passing skills and you had one of the best frontcourts of all time.

LOL. Just remembered one of McHale's teammates nicknamed him 'The Black Hole' because once you passed the ball in to him, it never came back out.

Gotta consider the source tho. Danny Ainge never met a shot he didn't like either. He was just pissed 'cause he couldn't hit 54-55% like McHale.

For the long haul, I'd pick Hakeem for his strength, durability and rebounding prowess. Gotta remember you have defensive post-moves as well as offensive. And it seems like I remember McHale and Duncan having more injury issues than Hakeem.

Good points. Thanks for giving in to the question, too.


Barkley said McHale was the toughest defender he ever played against, but I'd attribute that to Mc's length and Barkley's lack thereof.

Also, as far as durability, you obviously have to take McHale down a few. He did drop in 30 over Zo Mourning his last game on one leg, though.

[Gaichon]

Originally Posted by b381l

Their post moves would have been different because they didn't play the same position.

OK. That logic eliminates the following discussions as well...


Better runner between the tackles - Riggins or Csonka? Oops can't go there, I guess. Riggins ran more from a one-back set. Csonka shared backfields and was more of a FB type.

Or, who was a better switch-hitter, Mickey Mantle or Eddie Murray? Wait! We can't talk about it cause Mantle batted 3rd and Murray was a clean-up guy.

Just disregard the C or F next to the name - its not a difficult question, at all. It's like when Fogler ran three guards for us in the 90s. Larry Davis would only fit in your box score as a SF, but he was a SG and played like one.

[OldPat]

Originally Posted by Gaichon

Take it FWIW, but Bill Simmons on Grantland said,

"You know which player draws the most "Can you cut me a tape of his low-post moves so I can show my players?" requests from high school coaches to NBA Entertainment? That's right … McHale. I spent two pages in my NBA book describing McHale's Chinese-food-menu catalog of low-post moves (an astonishing 12 variations in all).8 You can't say that there was a better low-post player than Kevin McHale. It's factually inaccurate. If you disagree, go find me a season in which Hakeem shot 60 percent from the field, then get back to me. McHale had two in a row. "

Gaichon, don't get carried away and expand this discussion beyond those three. That brings Wilt and Russ into the picture, and none of these three come even close to matching them.

[Cheezy]

Dream shake, all day.

[Gaichon]

Originally Posted by OldPat

Gaichon, don't get carried away and expand this discussion beyond those three. That brings Wilt and Russ into the picture, and none of these three come even close to matching them.

Heck no. Definitely not. But if I did I'd stress best post moves vs. best post player overall.

I had a random conversation with someone at the gym and Tim Duncan came up and my reply was I'd take a healthy McHale over him. That was really the debate - those two. I threw in The Dream cause its just obvious, specifically related to "moves"

[OldPat]

Originally Posted by Gaichon

Heck no. Definitely not. But if I did I'd stress best post moves vs. best post player overall.

I had a random conversation with someone at the gym and Tim Duncan came up and my reply was I'd take a healthy McHale over him. That was really the debate - those two. I threw in The Dream cause its just obvious, specifically related to "moves"

Gotcha.

[ConwayGamecock]

Originally Posted by Coulwoodwarlord

McHale killed them with the same exact move..........every time.

Yep, McHale essentially used one move for the most part in this video although he had many different moves, but he was deathly effective with it in two ways that made it impossible to defend. This particular move involved setting in a post position, pivoting towards the basket and showing the ball, which influences the defender to jump up or step forward to block/defend the ball. But it's a fake, and once the defender is committed, McHale maintains his pivot, steps under and through/past the committed defender, and lunges forward towards the basket, extending his freakishly long arms and the ball to the basket, laying the ball through and scoring.

What sells this move is shown better later on in his video...not so much at the start of it. McHale had a great little turn-around jump-shot and fall-away shot. When he was on his game, he could hit that little jumper with ease. THAT'S what sells the move: the defender can't stay conservative, or he'll get burned on that little jumper for 30 points, so he HAS to treat it with serious-ness. He's probably already been lit up with 4-5 of those jumpers or fall-aways. So when he starts committing, THEN McHale does the tuck, pivot, and lunge-through to the basket...

The only thing that could stop this move was the Celtics not giving McHale the ball, or McHale missing his shots from his little jumper. The defender - even several defenders at times - wouldn't do anything. McHale was already a tall power-forward - around 6-10, a tad taller than the "small forward" 6-9 Bird - and he was used as a center at times when Parrish was hurt or got into foul trouble. But his arm-span made him way too long for most other PFs to do much in way of defending his post moves....he was longer than many opposing true centers who ended up defending him...

[MillerTime843]

McHale had the same move for his entire career! Olajuwon had power, Duncan has Fundamentals.

Fundamentals win ALL DAY

[b381l]

Originally Posted by Gaichon

OK. That logic eliminates the following discussions as well...


Better runner between the tackles - Riggins or Csonka? Oops can't go there, I guess. Riggins ran more from a one-back set. Csonka shared backfields and was more of a FB type.

Or, who was a better switch-hitter, Mickey Mantle or Eddie Murray? Wait! We can't talk about it cause Mantle batted 3rd and Murray was a clean-up guy.

Just disregard the C or F next to the name - its not a difficult question, at all. It's like when Fogler ran three guards for us in the 90s. Larry Davis would only fit in your box score as a SF, but he was a SG and played like one.

Why are you being so argumentative. All three players were great for different reasons.
Not a big deal.

[GH]

Originally Posted by ConwayGamecock

Yep, McHale essentially used one move for the most part in this video although he had many different moves, but he was deathly effective with it in two ways that made it impossible to defend. This particular move involved setting in a post position, pivoting towards the basket and showing the ball, which influences the defender to jump up or step forward to block/defend the ball. But it's a fake, and once the defender is committed, McHale maintains his pivot, steps under and through/past the committed defender, and lunges forward towards the basket, extending his freakishly long arms and the ball to the basket, laying the ball through and scoring.

What sells this move is shown better later on in his video...not so much at the start of it. McHale had a great little turn-around jump-shot and fall-away shot. When he was on his game, he could hit that little jumper with ease. THAT'S what sells the move: the defender can't stay conservative, or he'll get burned on that little jumper for 30 points, so he HAS to treat it with serious-ness. He's probably already been lit up with 4-5 of those jumpers or fall-aways. So when he starts committing, THEN McHale does the tuck, pivot, and lunge-through to the basket...

The only thing that could stop this move was the Celtics not giving McHale the ball, or McHale missing his shots from his little jumper. The defender - even several defenders at times - wouldn't do anything. McHale was already a tall power-forward - around 6-10, a tad taller than the "small forward" 6-9 Bird - and he was used as a center at times when Parrish was hurt or got into foul trouble. But his arm-span made him way too long for most other PFs to do much in way of defending his post moves....he was longer than many opposing true centers who ended up defending him...

When I was in school in the 90's, the Kevin McHale Post Pivot ball fake was a part of every practice. Then again, we also had to work on banking shots in from 15 ft out using the inner square. of the backboard.

[FLgamecockJAX]

Originally Posted by OldPat

These 3 were so good at what they did, who I picked would depend on the situation.
If I needed a good center - Hakeem.
If I had a so-so center and needed a player who could swing from F-C - Duncan.
If I had a good center and wanted a forward who could run and post-up - McHale.

My thinking exactly!