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Old 01-12-2014, 12:46 AM   #121
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

We just have no post players. And have we recruited any? No. No we havent
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Old 01-12-2014, 12:48 AM   #122
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by STEPHONGILMOREFAN! View Post
We just have no post players. And have we recruited any? No. No we havent
yea lsu killed us inside we havent any big men
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Old 01-12-2014, 01:22 AM   #123
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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sick of the we are young crap we have been bad for over a freaking decade!! I guess we have been young for 10 plus years
We have also had bad recruiting...frank has lifted the recruiting...big difference...young and no talent is different than young with talent...fact is these guys as progressing...under horn they were regressing.

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Old 01-12-2014, 03:01 AM   #124
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by STEPHONGILMOREFAN! View Post
We just have no post players. And have we recruited any? No. No we havent
First, LSU has maybe the best frontcourt in the SEC, they make a lot of teams look bad in the post.

Second, finding and developing quality big men is tough even for elite programs, so saying "let's go out and recruit them" is, frankly, unrealistic.

Third, we have recruited building blocks down low. Give Henry and Ringer a chance to grow. They look a lot better when they aren't going against the likes of the 2 first round picks in the LSU frontcourt.

Some on this board need to slow down and appreciate the growing process for this team. Take a step back and see that we are maturing a little more with every game.
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Old 01-12-2014, 04:44 AM   #125
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**v:

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Originally Posted by STEPHONGILMOREFAN! View Post
We just have no post players. And have we recruited any? No. No we havent
The staff wants to bring in a post player with this class. They hope to find a transfer, currently looking at a 7'1 JUCO kid
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Old 01-12-2014, 08:27 PM   #126
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by M.C. View Post
sick of the we are young crap we have been bad for over a freaking decade!! I guess we have been young for 10 plus years
That makes no sense. How long do you think it takes to turn around a program? 1 season?

Just for kicks, here's our record the past 6 seasons before Frank arrived:

06-07: 14-16
07-08: 14-18
08-09: 21-10
09-10: 15-16
10-11: 14-16
11-12: 10-21

If you're still complaining about losses, you have no idea the history of this program. Frank knows what he's doing and it's going to take a little while to establish his system. Dawn Staley and Steve Spurrier didn't turn things around overnight either:

Spurrier's first six seasons at South Carolina:
7-5
8-5
6-6
7-6
7-6
9-5

(1-4 in Bowl Games)

Staley's first three seasons at South Carolina
10-18
14-15
18-15

Be patient.
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Old 01-12-2014, 08:29 PM   #127
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by STEPHONGILMOREFAN! View Post
We just have no post players. And have we recruited any? No. No we havent
Desmond Ringer is a post player and we recruited him as such. Ringer hasn't played well this season though.

Chatkevicius was supposed to be able to play inside too, but he's hit or miss there.
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:29 AM   #128
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by TwoNotch Dreams View Post
Desmond Ringer is a post player and we recruited him as such. Ringer hasn't played well this season though.

Chatkevicius was supposed to be able to play inside too, but he's hit or miss there.
Henry was a top 100 player. Don't forget. These guys need time to develop. 2 years in the weight room and they will be fine
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:32 AM   #129
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by pimpingamecock View Post
We have also had bad recruiting...frank has lifted the recruiting...big difference...young and no talent is different than young with talent...fact is these guys as progressing...under horn they were regressing.

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Recruiting hasn't been the problem. Horn brought in good recruits. HarrisBruce Gill Leonard were all top 150. The problem is Horn couldn't develop them.
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:48 AM   #130
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Recruiting hasn't been the problem. Horn brought in good recruits. HarrisBruce Gill Leonard were all top 150. The problem is Horn couldn't develop them.
That is correct; Frank will be able to develop them. You can look at Dawn's progress to get an idea what will happen with Frank. Eddie Fogler didn't make the NCAA's until his 4th season.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:15 AM   #131
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Recruiting hasn't been the problem. Horn brought in good recruits. HarrisBruce Gill Leonard were all top 150. The problem is Horn couldn't develop them.
Recruiting, development and scheme was the problem under Horne.

Martin has his unit playing with a high level of intensity, they will do nothing but improve in the near future. They are young, and we are not loaded with one and done talent, therefore, don't be looking for a championship this year, but feel free to be positive about the future. Martin is going to make it happen.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:22 AM   #132
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

So I took my wife and daughter to this game because someone gave us tickets.

What's the story on the hippie looking guy who throws the towel up in the air? I'm assuming he's a regular.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:06 AM   #133
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by COCKYTALKIN View Post
Recruiting, development and scheme was the problem under Horne.

Martin has his unit playing with a high level of intensity, they will do nothing but improve in the near future. They are young, and we are not loaded with one and done talent, therefore, don't be looking for a championship this year, but feel free to be positive about the future. Martin is going to make it happen.
Recruiting was most definitely not the problem under Horn. Development and scheme, I'd agree with, but even Bill Gunter of The Big Spur has stated on several occasions that recruiting was not bad under Horn. If recruiting was a problem under Horn, we need to get rid of Martin right now because he is recruiting the same rated talent.

Horn's only mistake recruiting was not bringing in an initial class, like Martin did, when he got here. Maybe he thought he had enough players to be a good team, and should just focus on the 2009 class. Either way that's where we'll begin.

2009 class:
Lakeem Jackson - According to rivals, Jackson was the #24 rated recruit at his position, and #117 nationally, holding offers from Clemson and Marquette.
Ramon Galloway - According to rivals, Galloway was the #25 SG prospect, #148 nationally, with offers from
Stephen Spinella - 3 star rated recruit
Johndre Jefferson - JUCO transfer with an offer from Miss St

2010 class: This class was ranked #22 in the nation. That's really bad isn't it?
Bruce Ellington - 4 stars #24 PG #96 overall
Carlton Geathers - 3 star
Damontre Harris - 4 stars #15 PF #64 overall
Brian Richardson - 3 star with other SEC offers
RJ Slawson - 3 star Mr. Basketball SC, #24 PF #117 overall
Eric Smith - 3 star with an offer from Clemson

2011 class:
Anthony Gill - 3 star #29 PF #144 overall
Damien Leonard - 4 star #22 SG #85 overall
Brenton Williams - 3 star (he's been awful hasn't he?)

And there you have it. If you really want to argue that Horn was a bad recruiter you are being ignorant to the facts. The fact of the matter is Horn recruited 7 top 150 rated recruits. Of those 7 recruits 3 were top 100 recruits. He has also been given direct thanks from Martin and "insiders" such as Bill Gunter for establishing great relationships with Thornwell and Stroman, which lead to them ultimately being interested enough to land here. Frank certainly sealed the deal, but it was Horn that forged the relationship. Also what hasn't been mentioned is that Horn was able to get a commit from top 150 player Sheldon Jeter for the 2012 class, and also had Carlos Morris (a top 150 recruit) committed until it became clear he would be let go.

Horn's recruiting was not the problem. He didn't go out and recruit bad players. He wasn't able to develop the players. The reason is pretty clear with the Harris saga at Florida. “It may mean him getting to a place where he can play the game on his terms,” Donovan said. “Someone may let him to do that. Here, it’s not our philosophy or belief.”

I don't think Horn had control over his team after that statement. Who knows? Recruiting was clearly not the problem though.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:20 AM   #134
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

Quote:
Originally Posted by baitandswitch View Post
Recruiting was most definitely not the problem under Horn. Development and scheme, I'd agree with, but even Bill Gunter of The Big Spur has stated on several occasions that recruiting was not bad under Horn. If recruiting was a problem under Horn, we need to get rid of Martin right now because he is recruiting the same rated talent.

Horn's only mistake recruiting was not bringing in an initial class, like Martin did, when he got here. Maybe he thought he had enough players to be a good team, and should just focus on the 2009 class. Either way that's where we'll begin.

2009 class:
Lakeem Jackson - According to rivals, Jackson was the #24 rated recruit at his position, and #117 nationally, holding offers from Clemson and Marquette.
Ramon Galloway - According to rivals, Galloway was the #25 SG prospect, #148 nationally, with offers from
Stephen Spinella - 3 star rated recruit
Johndre Jefferson - JUCO transfer with an offer from Miss St

2010 class: This class was ranked #22 in the nation. That's really bad isn't it?
Bruce Ellington - 4 stars #24 PG #96 overall
Carlton Geathers - 3 star
Damontre Harris - 4 stars #15 PF #64 overall
Brian Richardson - 3 star with other SEC offers
RJ Slawson - 3 star Mr. Basketball SC, #24 PF #117 overall
Eric Smith - 3 star with an offer from Clemson

2011 class:
Anthony Gill - 3 star #29 PF #144 overall
Damien Leonard - 4 star #22 SG #85 overall
Brenton Williams - 3 star (he's been awful hasn't he?)

And there you have it. If you really want to argue that Horn was a bad recruiter you are being ignorant to the facts. The fact of the matter is Horn recruited 7 top 150 rated recruits. Of those 7 recruits 3 were top 100 recruits. He has also been given direct thanks from Martin and "insiders" such as Bill Gunter for establishing great relationships with Thornwell and Stroman, which lead to them ultimately being interested enough to land here. Frank certainly sealed the deal, but it was Horn that forged the relationship. Also what hasn't been mentioned is that Horn was able to get a commit from top 150 player Sheldon Jeter for the 2012 class, and also had Carlos Morris (a top 150 recruit) committed until it became clear he would be let go.

Horn's recruiting was not the problem. He didn't go out and recruit bad players. He wasn't able to develop the players. The reason is pretty clear with the Harris saga at Florida. “It may mean him getting to a place where he can play the game on his terms,” Donovan said. “Someone may let him to do that. Here, it’s not our philosophy or belief.”

I don't think Horn had control over his team after that statement. Who knows? Recruiting was clearly not the problem though.
I want to bake a pie. I go to the store and buy pie crust, beer and chips. I would say I did well, but am I going to be able to make a pie? Nope.

That's Horne's problem, don't give a rip about rankings and yes some of the players have talent, but he never recruited anything that resembled a team that should be on the court in the SEC.

His recruiting was horrible.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:28 AM   #135
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

This was the team Horn inherited from Dave Odom his first year:

Devan Downey / Branden Conrad
Zam Frederick / Brandis Raley-Ross
Domonique Archie / Evaldis Baniulis
Mike Holmes / Austin Steed
Sam Muldrow / Michael Carter

I don't blame him for not getting a class that season. We were stacked. We would have made the tournament the next season if Holmes wasn't a dumbass and Archie didn't get hurt. Those players had nothing to do with Horn though, he was just gift-wrapped a great nucleus of players.

From a numbers standpoint, Horn didn't get bad recruits. But the style of player he got was awful. Most of the players he ended up getting flamed out after a few seasons or just wasn't as good as advertised. Too many undisciplined players who didn't know how to win basketball games or make the right play. In turn, Horn was not good at recruiting. He might have formed a good relationship with Sindarius, but there's no way we would have got him if he stayed on.

Being a ***** recruit means nothing when the games start. Of all the classes Horn recruited, only Ramon Galloway had a successful college basketball career. Even then, he didn't do it until he left Horn.

Williams has been solid for us the past 2 seasons and Lakeem was underused.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:36 AM   #136
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by TwoNotch Dreams View Post
This was the team Horn inherited from Dave Odom his first year:

Devan Downey / Branden Conrad
Zam Frederick / Brandis Raley-Ross
Domonique Archie / Evaldis Baniulis
Mike Holmes / Austin Steed
Sam Muldrow / Michael Carter

I don't blame him for not getting a class that season. We were stacked. We would have made the tournament the next season if Holmes wasn't a dumbass and Archie didn't get hurt. Those players had nothing to do with Horn though, he was just gift-wrapped a great nucleus of players.

From a numbers standpoint, Horn didn't get bad recruits. But the style of player he got was awful. Most of the players he ended up getting flamed out after a few seasons or just wasn't as good as advertised. Too many undisciplined players who didn't know how to win basketball games or make the right play.
Who did he bring in out of that group? Can't remember, I know Muldrow, Devan and Dominique were here. Much better group than what was left for Martin, that's for sure.

Losing Dominique that year was huge. Had hopes for that group.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:39 AM   #137
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Who did he bring in out of that group? Can't remember, I know Muldrow, Devan and Dominique were here. Much better group than what was left for Martin, that's for sure.

Losing Dominique that year was huge. Had hopes for that group.
We didn't have any freshmen that year unless they were walkons, so it was pretty much Dave Odom's team. After we lost Holmes and Archie, Horn basically told Downey to go out there and drop 30 a game so we could win.

Now if Holmes hadn't been dumb and Archie didn't get hurt, our 2009-10 lineup would have been:

Downey/Galloway
Raley-Ross/Jackson
Archie/Baniulis
Holmes/Steed
Muldrow/Jefferson

We def could have made the tourney.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:51 AM   #138
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by TwoNotch Dreams View Post
This was the team Horn inherited from Dave Odom his first year:

Devan Downey / Branden Conrad
Zam Frederick / Brandis Raley-Ross
Domonique Archie / Evaldis Baniulis
Mike Holmes / Austin Steed
Sam Muldrow / Michael Carter

I don't blame him for not getting a class that season. We were stacked. We would have made the tournament the next season if Holmes wasn't a dumbass and Archie didn't get hurt. Those players had nothing to do with Horn though, he was just gift-wrapped a great nucleus of players.

From a numbers standpoint, Horn didn't get bad recruits. But the style of player he got was awful. Most of the players he ended up getting flamed out after a few seasons or just wasn't as good as advertised. Too many undisciplined players who didn't know how to win basketball games or make the right play. In turn, Horn was not good at recruiting. He might have formed a good relationship with Sindarius, but there's no way we would have got him if he stayed on.

Being a ***** recruit means nothing when the games start. Of all the classes Horn recruited, only Ramon Galloway had a successful college basketball career. Even then, he didn't do it until he left Horn.


Williams has been solid for us the past 2 seasons and Lakeem was underused.
Exactly, he was not a good recruiter. My method of judgment is watching the games and concluding that there is no amount of coaching that could possibly win with the teams he assembled. We did not resemble a DI basketball team, much less an SEC team.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:03 PM   #139
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by TwoNotch Dreams View Post
This was the team Horn inherited from Dave Odom his first year:

Devan Downey / Branden Conrad
Zam Frederick / Brandis Raley-Ross
Domonique Archie / Evaldis Baniulis
Mike Holmes / Austin Steed
Sam Muldrow / Michael Carter

I don't blame him for not getting a class that season. We were stacked. We would have made the tournament the next season if Holmes wasn't a dumbass and Archie didn't get hurt. Those players had nothing to do with Horn though, he was just gift-wrapped a great nucleus of players.

From a numbers standpoint, Horn didn't get bad recruits. But the style of player he got was awful. Most of the players he ended up getting flamed out after a few seasons or just wasn't as good as advertised. Too many undisciplined players who didn't know how to win basketball games or make the right play. In turn, Horn was not good at recruiting. He might have formed a good relationship with Sindarius, but there's no way we would have got him if he stayed on.

Being a ***** recruit means nothing when the games start. Of all the classes Horn recruited, only Ramon Galloway had a successful college basketball career. Even then, he didn't do it until he left Horn.

Williams has been solid for us the past 2 seasons and Lakeem was underused.
The players he got were never developed. The argument was that Horn was a bad recruiter, which simply was not true. All you've done is reiterate what I stated which was Horn couldn't develop the players or scheme well. The players he got were athletic enough, if developed properly, to fit in a scheme together... but I couldn't tell you what Horn's scheme was.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:06 PM   #140
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Default Re: **USC vs. LSU GAME Thread**

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Originally Posted by COCKYTALKIN View Post
Exactly, he was not a good recruiter. My method of judgment is watching the games and concluding that there is no amount of coaching that could possibly win with the teams he assembled. We did not resemble a DI basketball team, much less an SEC team.
He was not a bad recruiter. Again it's all development. What you saw was an undeveloped team. I believe that had Ellington solely focused on basketball he would have gotten better. I also believe that a real developer of talent like Martin could have done something with those guys that Horn could not. And no last season does not count as Martin had those guys for a small portion of time. Had they been in his system longer, they probably would have been successful. Recruiting is definitely a crap shoot, but the players he got did not just succeed in high school and AAU ball and then crap out here. They didn't develop and that's coaching not recruiting.
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