Can we be honest about the state of our bball program right now?

[Ace Dilcock]

I believe in giving Coach more time, but there is a big difference between basketball and football in terms of re-building programs. In football, five years might not be long enough. In basketball, you can turn it around in two years. You just need to develop a few guys and find a couple of early contributors (like Thornwell). The disappointment is that our second year guys are not getting better - Kacinas is strictly a rebounder and Carrerra has regressed and seems lost. Chatkevicius might be a little better but he is still raw with a long way to go. I know that Martin was limited with recruiting last year, but player development reflects the coaching ability of the staff. Compare and contrast player development with what our football coaches are able to do.

[rrsandersjr]

I think that not having the Lithuanians here for the summer(with thier national team) hurt their progress. Carrerra is playing out of position...he is natural 4, although small, trying to play a 3. Most 3's are the most athletic player on the court and Carrerra has hard time guarding them.
Another thing that hurts us and other schools trying to get out of the bottom is the "one and done" rule. If they had a rule similar to football and baseball, where a player has to stay for 3 years, then there would be more top level talent for the bottom feeders to go after. As it stands now, the one and done schools keep taking the top tier talent every year.

[Nureye]

Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate

Hate to say it, but the devan Downey point guards was what killed gamecock basketball. He was a great basketball player, but a pg is supposed to pass the ball, Downey, Kelly, etc.. Didn't. Aaron Lucas is about the last true PG we have had

WTF are you talking about? Our point guards killed the basketball program? Downey is the best player we've had in the last 35 years. If it wasn't for him we would have been in even worse shape.

[boness]

Originally Posted by baitandswitch

I see progress, but you're right. He's not outrecruiting the major schools around us, so it's going to take time to build this program up.

Certainly it will take time to recruit vs major winning institutions, UNC, Duke, UF certainly, GT, Wake and NCState and such ehhhhh. Still you guys are ignoring points made by prev posters.
Fine CU is ahead of us. If we were the 2nd best team in the state that would be one thing but we are not!! In addition to CU, SC upstate is better as is Coastal Carolina and COC. Presuming we are better than Winthorp and Presb then we at most 5th best in state.
Much like UF football fans said when asked about losing to Ga Southern. "We don't care if a walk on receiver is playing QB we should beat these guys, no excuses".
No excuse for a major program with D1 recruits no matter how young to be less effective than these such teams. Yes SS started out ordinary and lost to powerhouse d 1 programs but he won more than he lost even then and beat the furmans and coastals of the world. so should the b ball team.

[Mt. Lattimore]

Was against the Martin hire from day 1 for this very reason.

We knew he wasn't going to win in the first couple years but we knew his personality wasn't going to change.

Now that people are growing tired of his personality, he is still losing, creating a bad situation for the program.

A different hire...any hire...would have more support across the board from the fans at this point, but since Martin has that personality, people are turning on him much sooner.

Not good for this program, and I'm afraid it will not end well.

[Nureye]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lattimore

Was against the Martin hire from day 1 for this very reason.

We knew he wasn't going to win in the first couple years but we knew his personality wasn't going to change.

Now that people are growing tired of his personality, he is still losing, creating a bad situation for the program.

A different hire...any hire...would have more support across the board from the fans at this point, but since Martin has that personality, people are turning on him much sooner.

Not good for this program, and I'm afraid it will not end well.

How many games have you attended this season?

[al hough]

This is just like a first year for Coach Martin, he has two guys that played together a lot last year. All the new guys have to learn to play together as well as learn a new system and also learn the difference between high school and basketball at a D1 school. Not easy, takes time and a lot of patience. These guys are playing hard they just don't have it together yet. They are improving in areas each game and are better now than in November and will be better in March. One good big man right now would make a lot of difference in the record. Our bigs are getting better but still have a way to go. Just give the entire thing time. You don't turn a basketball program around in one year unless you get a bunch of one and dones and that doesn't always work out either.

[baitandswitch]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lattimore

Was against the Martin hire from day 1 for this very reason.

We knew he wasn't going to win in the first couple years but we knew his personality wasn't going to change.

Now that people are growing tired of his personality, he is still losing, creating a bad situation for the program.

A different hire...any hire...would have more support across the board from the fans at this point, but since Martin has that personality, people are turning on him much sooner.

Not good for this program, and I'm afraid it will not end well.

No.

[baitandswitch]

Originally Posted by boness

Certainly it will take time to recruit vs major winning institutions, UNC, Duke, UF certainly, GT, Wake and NCState and such ehhhhh. Still you guys are ignoring points made by prev posters.
Fine CU is ahead of us. If we were the 2nd best team in the state that would be one thing but we are not!! In addition to CU, SC upstate is better as is Coastal Carolina and COC. Presuming we are better than Winthorp and Presb then we at most 5th best in state.
Much like UF football fans said when asked about losing to Ga Southern. "We don't care if a walk on receiver is playing QB we should beat these guys, no excuses".
No excuse for a major program with D1 recruits no matter how young to be less effective than these such teams. Yes SS started out ordinary and lost to powerhouse d 1 programs but he won more than he lost even then and beat the furmans and coastals of the world. so should the b ball team.

I have no interest in anyone that compares basketball to football. Have a nice day.

[baitandswitch]

Originally Posted by rrsandersjr

I think that not having the Lithuanians here for the summer(with thier national team) hurt their progress. Carrerra is playing out of position...he is natural 4, although small, trying to play a 3. Most 3's are the most athletic player on the court and Carrerra has hard time guarding them.
Another thing that hurts us and other schools trying to get out of the bottom is the "one and done" rule. If they had a rule similar to football and baseball, where a player has to stay for 3 years, then there would be more top level talent for the bottom feeders to go after. As it stands now, the one and done schools keep taking the top tier talent every year.

I agree. Maybe if the Lithuanians had been here bonding with players, staying in the conditioning program, they may be further along. Carerra is not playing 3 much anymore. I think giving Carerra an offseason to learn the 3 spot wasn't enough time, but if he can improve his shot a little more he'll be fine. I don't think the one and done rule is any more influential in a recruit than a 3 year rule. Top talent is always going to get recruited by Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, Florida, etc... It's the nature of the beast. A kid is going to go play where he thinks he can make it in the league. Right now kids don't think about USC. That's changing with the addition of Stroman, Johnson, Thornwell...Kids are looking at Frank and realizing that we are finally dedicated to winning in basketball. The future is bright with the potential of adding Dozier and Woods. It just takes time to develop players. Time Frank Martin isn't being allowed by some of the "fans" on this board.

[cockybreeyan]

The one-and-done going away argument is tiresome. That would not help us. The top talent will still go to the top schools. We need a miracle at this point. No way does Seventh Woods come here.

[ipull4usc]

Blaming Devan Downey and Tre Kelley for our current basketball woes has to be the most preposterous thing I've seen on this board. Those guys were forced into a role where they were asked to carry the team on their backs ever damn game, and they gave everything they had out there. Not to mention both those guys could single handedly whip the dogshit out of our current team. Those guys were the epitome of Fighting Gamecocks, and our current team makes Downey's and Kelley's teams look like the Miami Heat.

[Gamecocks1137]

Originally Posted by cockybreeyan

The one-and-done going away argument is tiresome. That would not help us. The top talent will still go to the top schools. We need a miracle at this point. No way does Seventh Woods come here.

Who would have thought Lattimore or Clowney would have came here, but they did.

[rrsandersjr]

Let me explain how one and done hurts us. Top ranked players are not going to a school and sit for two to three years. Kentucky will not be taking 5-6 top ranked players every year because they won't have room. The same with Duke, Kansas and the others. Instead of completely restocking your team every year with 5-6 players, those teams may be able to convince 2-3 players a year to come and sit behind the other 5* lettermen that are coming back for their soph and junior years. Right now, it's supply and demand. UK drains the supply every year to a much greater extent than they would with a play 3 system.

[sosfan812]

This is basically Frank's first year as you can't really count last year as part of the building project. He has what 7 new freshman, this is a new team where none of the guys have ever really played with each other. I don't think we will see improvement in the win-loss until next year however, we should see improvement in this years players coming together and seeing a team that doesn't give up and you know what I've seen this watching the team. As far as Martin and the way he yells and pushes the players I can tell some of you have never spent 1 day in the military, I would rather have a leader that knocks you down but builds you back up as a team any day of the week.

[boness]

Originally Posted by baitandswitch

I have no interest in anyone that compares basketball to football. Have a nice day.

You then have no interest in a # of the post made in this thread. The comparison ws made in the post I responded to as the writer expressed an opinion that like SS taking a # of yrs to build the FB prgram before he experienced the suiccess of these last 4 seasons so should the Bball coach be given a similair window to build his program before being judged.
I don't agree Bball should take a similair window as Fball to turn around and instead agree with a later poster that Bball can be turned arond in 2 or 3 seasons due to the significant impact a single player or two. Regardless of which position one may take all points of view have merit.

In your effort to dismiss others and thus set your self apart and above you ignored the primary point of the post which is.... it is reasonable to forgive the Bball team for failing to compete with the powerhouse one and done level programs. Maybe even the GT, CU and other tournament D1 programs but like Florida with Georgia Southern, under no circumstance should any program with D1 recruits, no matter how young, be infierior to the likes of SC upstate, Pres, COC or Coastal Carolina.
Currently we r inferior to such teams and this is inexcusable.
I am having a nice day, thank you for wishing me well. WVP

[uncc21]

Originally Posted by baitandswitch

We are already signing top players with Thornwell and Stroman.

Sure we missed on Peak, but he'll probably go to Georgetown and then miss his mommy.

If you were a decent basketball player), where would you go? Georgetown or SC. Assuming you weren't a Gamecock fan. Georgetown obviously. Do you know peak? Is he a mommas boy? Do you know him personally?

[GamecockUltimate]

Originally Posted by ipull4usc

Blaming Devan Downey and Tre Kelley for our current basketball woes has to be the most preposterous thing I've seen on this board. Those guys were forced into a role where they were asked to carry the team on their backs ever damn game, and they gave everything they had out there. Not to mention both those guys could single handedly whip the dogshit out of our current team. Those guys were the epitome of Fighting Gamecocks, and our current team makes Downey's and Kelley's teams look like the Miami Heat.

I mean I will give you that, I should rephrase it isn't those guys faults...that was wrong to say, it was the coaching that believed that letting one guy shoot it 30-40 times would make us competitive. Those teams were good in transition, but our half court offense has been god awful for 10 years and it started with the idea if we had a PG that could just take it to the rim everytime we would be successful. In my opinion a good team in one where you have lot of assists, and we have been last in assists per game for years.

[ReadR00ster]

Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate

I mean I will give you that, I should rephrase it isn't those guys faults...that was wrong to say, it was the coaching that believed that letting one guy shoot it 30-40 times would make us competitive. Those teams were good in transition, but our half court offense has been god awful for 10 years and it started with the idea if we had a PG that could just take it to the rim everytime we would be successful. In my opinion a good team in one where you have lot of assists, and we have been last in assists per game for years.

Good teams often have a best player or two and they score a lot of points and the other teams just can't stop, kind of like how we just can stop anyone.

[Gamecocks1137]

Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate

I mean I will give you that, I should rephrase it isn't those guys faults...that was wrong to say, it was the coaching that believed that letting one guy shoot it 30-40 times would make us competitive. Those teams were good in transition, but our half court offense has been god awful for 10 years and it started with the idea if we had a PG that could just take it to the rim everytime we would be successful. In my opinion a good team in one where you have lot of assists, and we have been last in assists per game for years.

I agree, if you watch the women's team, their passing game and assists are phenomenal. I wish we could play more like they do, of course they have a tall player who can lay it in(Coates). We have yet to land that guy for our team.