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Old 04-02-2014, 02:28 PM   #41
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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Originally Posted by 3MTA3 View Post
It isn't jumping to a conclusion, it is following the logical steps they have laid out in their argument. Sorry that is so hard for you.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:29 PM   #42
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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Originally Posted by Lalli25 View Post
It isn't jumping to a conclusion, it is following the logical steps they have laid out in their argument. Sorry that is so hard for you.
again, from the Grantland article...

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One of the neat strategies you’ll see the NCAA’s defenders deploy in the wake of the Northwestern ruling is to start throwing out a million practical questions that have yet to be resolved, as though, if you can’t immediately answer all of them, they must be totally impossible to solve. “I don’t know what happens to their meal cards!” you’re supposed to cry in this situation, throwing your hands up to the heavens. “Therefore change is futile and I have no choice but to agree that the student-athlete system is the key to success in the classroom, on the field, and in life!”

But this is ludicrous. Reform of a big organization like the NCAA is inevitably going to involve a lot of tough questions. Maybe Ultimate Frisbee at Middlebury isn’t a job in the same way basketball at Kentucky is. Maybe some provision will be necessary to make sure women’s sports are treated fairly. But you know what? People build multinational corporations and reasonably functional democracies. People deal with trickier problems than college-sports revenue distribution all the time. Raising objections as though the mere existence of practical difficulties shuts down the conversation is the stalling tactic of an exhausted debater. It’s the move of someone with nothing left to defend.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:30 PM   #43
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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more scare tactics

"smaller schools wont be able to compete!"

SMALLER SCHOOLS CANT COMPETE NOW!

How many smaller schools do you see with the facilities of an Oregon?

But, for some reason, we're OUTRAGED by THIS level of disparity that MIGHT occur...not the disparity, though, that is ALREADY occurring.
It isn't a scare tactic to discuss reality. Anytime anyone shows why you are wrong you just refuse to discuss the actual situation. If you look now we have had teams like Boise State go to BCS bowl games and compete and beat the big boys. With the system you want, that will no longer be a possibility. Facilities only go so far, but being able to pay thousands of dollars to athletes is a whole other ball game.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:30 PM   #44
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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again, from the Grantland article...
You won't address them. That article is just a long winded way of saying nothing just like you haven't whenever pushed on the issue. Sound decision making isn't to just say screw it and jump without any thought of how to handle the possible future problems.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:33 PM   #45
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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You won't address them. That article is just a long winded way of saying nothing just like you haven't whenever pushed on the issue.
wrong again

i'm saying that i agree with the article...there will be difficult questions that need to be addressed, provisions made, regulations implemented, etc...

the difference is- you're throwing your hands up in the air and giving up, accepting the hypocrisy that is the NCAA

I'm saying that its a system worth improving.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:39 PM   #46
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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wrong again

i'm saying that i agree with the article...there will be difficult questions that need to be addressed, provisions made, regulations implemented, etc...

the difference is- you're throwing your hands up in the air and giving up, accepting the hypocrisy that is the NCAA

I'm saying that its a system worth improving.
I don't agree there is hypocrisy, that is the first misstatement you make. Second, you should figure out how to handle it before destroying everything. You are just ok with getting rid of a system that is sustainable without making sure the changes would be sustainable. It is very short sighted and why I say you don't actually have an argument. You say I use scare tactics, no it is logical reason and problem solving. I would never make a decision with, well I haven't thought about how to fix all these problems but hell, let's just do it. Your solution sounds about as well thought out as the healthcare website design.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:48 PM   #47
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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I don't agree there is hypocrisy, that is the first misstatement you make. Second, you should figure out how to handle it before destroying everything. You are just ok with getting rid of a system that is sustainable without making sure the changes would be sustainable. It is very short sighted and why I say you don't actually have an argument. You say I use scare tactics, no it is logical reason and problem solving. I would never make a decision with, well I haven't thought about how to fix all these problems but hell, let's just do it. Your solution sounds about as well thought out as the healthcare website design.
You say the current system is sustainable.

I do not think it is- because it is inherently unfair to student-athletes.
The NCAA can get ahead of this, or- after several more years worth of appeals, inevitable federal courts will take care of it for the NCAA.

So, any way you slice it...change is coming.

If that is your idea of sustainability, well...sister, I'm not sure what to tell ya.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:52 PM   #48
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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I would never make a decision with, well I haven't thought about how to fix all these problems but hell, let's just do it.
Current employment laws were enacted that way.

I'm sure there was some rich factory owner who said, back before those employment laws, something along the lines of "if we prevent business owners from operating as they see fit, then it will be the end of industry!"

And yet...we're still here today.

You see, your SPECULATIONS are based off of the current system. You say you're just reasoning logically, but your reasoning is within context of the current system. But since the current system is going away (its an inevitability) then how can your reasoning still be considered as the only logical outcome? It can't. Your problem is- you cannot project out what a new system will be like, and you surmise that means any system other than the current one is untenable.

logical FALLACY
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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Current employment laws were enacted that way.

I'm sure there was some rich factory owner who said, back before those employment laws, something along the lines of "if we prevent business owners from operating as they see fit, then it will be the end of industry!"

And yet...we're still here today.

You see, your SPECULATIONS are based off of the current system. You say you're just reasoning logically, but your reasoning is within context of the current system. But since the current system is going away (its an inevitability) then how can your reasoning still be considered as the only logical outcome? It can't. Your problem is- you cannot project out what a new system will be like, and you surmise that means any system other than the current one is untenable.

logical FALLACY
Your shorts sighted ignorance is laughable. It's pointless to discuss an issue with a person who ignores economics and laws like title IX. Your solution is it all will magically work out.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:18 PM   #50
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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I like this but I would argue for a strike policy and not a 1 mess up and you're done kinda thing because after all kids will be kids whether they play sports or not.

If I may play devil's advocate for a second. With your stipulations there, mixed with our sue happy society today. A whole new crazy can of worms could be opened up by 1 unhappy player suing because he lost his money.

The NCAA would have to make sure they wrote out very clearly everything you must do to get that money.

I also don't agree with making the kids graduate to get their money. Some guys just plain don't want an education. I know it sounds dumb to say but if you really look at it i'm not wrong. With how many underclassmen left school early this year for the NFL, I don't think that number would increase much if you allowed them to collect that money after they leave school to turn pro early. (although, enticing them with more money by staying the extra year to graduate MIGHT sway some kids to stay and finish their last year of eligibility)
I agree with the stipend...and updating scholarships a little bit.
I don't want to see college players signing deals and contracts...then it is essientially the minor leagues.

Plus, the only players that would likely sign the big endorsements are the big time guys from the power conferences, while athletes in say the Sunbelt, WAC and C-USA get left behind...endorsements would only increase the gap between the haves and have nots (imagine teams like Ohio State having the power to not only offer what they already do, but a short route to sign an endorsement deal...granted Arkansas State and Ohio State aren't going after the same players).

But the stipened...no problem with that.

People forget, these players are already getting money under the table from boosters ...happens at every major program...might as well make it legal and let the universities control it. It wouldn't stop booster hand-outs...programs like Auburn are still going to find ways to give players illegal benefits.

Pay for play...no...you are getting your expensive education for free...but a stipened once a month, or twice a month, that once it is out, it is out, no problem with that.

Also, if you break certain rules, you lose the stipened.

Stipends could bleed over into schools teaching financial responsibility to athletes, preparing a kids for real-world personal finance.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:23 PM   #51
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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Your shorts sighted ignorance is laughable. It's pointless to discuss an issue with a person who ignores economics and laws like title IX. Your solution is it all will magically work out.
Again- these "issues" of yours were addressed in the article I posted. Sorry it was too "long winded" for you. Bleacher Report didn't have anything on the topic worth reading.

I've never said I expect for it to 'magically' work out, just that the tough questions will be addressed in due time.

I mean, hell...look at the United States of America. Did the founding fathers wait until they had a Constitution decided upon before the Declaration of Independence was written? Because that's kind of what you're expecting...not to upset the status quo until you have all of the minutiae laid out before you in pretty colors and collated hand-outs.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:24 PM   #52
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I don't want to see college players signing deals and contracts...then it is essientially the minor leagues.

even IF it were to be 'essentially the minor leagues'...why would that be so bad?
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:26 PM   #53
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It is no different than a law firm making someone complete law school before giving them a job. It isn't college forcing them to stay there, it is the NFL setting their job requirements.

I also don't get the argument that it is unfair for someone to make money off of others work. That is what every business does. The company risks money to make a large profit, while the worker gets a guaranteed salary no matter what the business makes each year. It is really simple, but for some reason people pretend like some form of slavery is happening.
LOL! So you are comparing an athlete who is physically ready to play football (only real requirement I can think of) with someone who must complete an undergrad degree, law school, and pass the bar? Sorry I do not see the similarity there. You are right I did misspeak on colleges "forcing" a player to stay, my bad. Point is, the landscape has changed and there is no comparison for this.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:48 PM   #54
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... or, we drop the silly charade of "student-athlete" and just have sports teams that are representing the university in name only. The athletes should be paid, because everyone else is profiting from them, and profiting big time.


By all means, PAY THEM...then remove scholarships and make them pay for room/board, tuition, taxes and health insurance.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:54 PM   #55
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By all means, PAY THEM...then remove scholarships and make them pay for room/board, tuition, taxes and health insurance.
Why is this stipulation so important to you (and others)?

Honestly, when people make this point, it just sounds like sour grapes / envy.
How would it affect you if they were paid IN ADDITION TO their scholarships?
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:54 PM   #56
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By all means, PAY THEM...then remove scholarships and make them pay for room/board, tuition, taxes and health insurance.
Don't you understand they want to have their cake and eat it too.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:55 PM   #57
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Don't you understand they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Yes, because no one else received scholarships in addition to payment for services rendered

LMFAO!
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Old 04-02-2014, 04:00 PM   #58
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Again- these "issues" of yours were addressed in the article I posted. Sorry it was too "long winded" for you. Bleacher Report didn't have anything on the topic worth reading.

I've never said I expect for it to 'magically' work out, just that the tough questions will be addressed in due time.

I mean, hell...look at the United States of America. Did the founding fathers wait until they had a Constitution decided upon before the Declaration of Independence was written? Because that's kind of what you're expecting...not to upset the status quo until you have all of the minutiae laid out before you in pretty colors and collated hand-outs.
You need to go study history before trying to use it. The declared the Declaration of Independence and had the articles of confederation in place. So yes, they did have a plan before just saying screw the British we are revolting. The constitution was a thought out plan not just let's throw this together and hope it works, before being adopted.


Again, you posted a rambling article that doesn't rebuke any of the issues people raise but just says it will work itself out somehow.
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Old 04-02-2014, 04:03 PM   #59
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Default Re: Column missed its mark

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You need to go study history before trying to use it. The declared the Declaration of Independence and had the articles of confederation in place. So yes, they did have a plan before just saying screw the British we are revolting. The constitution was a thought out plan not just let's throw this together and hope it works, before being adopted.
How did those Articles of Confederation work out?

Oh, you mean the system that was devised was scrapped in lieu of the Constitution, which came after?

You mean you DONT have to have all the details set in stone before recognizing a systemic change is needed?

WHOOPS!


Thanks for furthering my point.
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Old 04-02-2014, 04:11 PM   #60
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Unionization in NCAA athletics is a microcosm of current society in the US. People want something for nothing.

A back-up Delaware St. safety wants health insurance and a cut of profits largely generated from schools he will never play against, not to mention probably ever had the chance to play at? That's like a kid at a lemonade stand demanding profits from Coca-Cola....and think about it....those two indenties are very different.

In the world of Obama phones, health care for all and only about 51% of Americans working, it is no suprise this is happening.

Here are my 2 cents.

1. No one is making you play football. If your scared to get injured, then don't play sports. I have yet to hear of any chemistry students teaing ACLs going to the library.

2. In any field, you have to put your apprentice in. Be in clerking in law school, residencies after med school, working under master electrician, etc....you are always going to have to do your share of "the grunt work" to get to the top of your field. If you wanna play in the NBA or NFL......guess what? You may be forced to a few years of near celebrity status on campus banging chicks you would have never had a chance to while running practically lawless and getting away with many others would not.

3. I don't care if your from Alabama, you never met your daddy, your mom blah blah blah. Life sucks and few have a silver spoon. Work for it. The color of your skin doesn't matter, only your attitude. And you can "poor inner city minority me" all you want. No one gives a sh!t sir, take out student loans and make something of yourself.....or better yet, be f'ing happy your athletic skills will allow you to go to school for FREE!!!!

Want health care, 401k, etc. Then be like the rest of us who went to college and got a degree if you cant' make it in the NFL/NBA/etc. etc. etc.
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