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Old 05-19-2014, 01:04 PM   #41
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Originally Posted by kingoftheroost View Post
I actually posted something similar quite a while back on this topic. I despise the fact that one team can benefit more from a penalty than the other depending on where the ball is spotted. I'm talking about a situation where the ball is spotted on the 2-yard line with the offense moving away from that endzone. In this situation, if the offense is called for a false start, then they lose one yard, but if on the next attempt to run a play the defense is called for offside, then the offense actually gains four yards, even though the consecutive penalties would normally be for identical yardage. The reverse scenario is also true.

For something like this, I say make the penalties hurt more. If an offense is backed up far enough where the full penalty yardage cannot be enforced once it is called, award the defense with a safety. If the offense is driving and the defense gets called for a penalty that can't be fully enforced, give the offense the two points.

In the scenario you mentioned how it's the player's fault for getting an automatic first down called against him, you're using only one example of a penalty that results in the first down. What about a late hit (that is also VERY questionable)? If an offense has 3rd and 57 and the defense gets called for the questionable late hit (let's say the running back's shoe BARELY touches the sideline and then a defender pushes him out further), then why should the offense get a free first down?
So, what happens after the offense gets the two points? Do they continue as normal, but the offense gets two more points? Would it be a kind of "reverse safety" where the team that was on defense free-kicks to the team that was on offense?
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Old 05-19-2014, 01:41 PM   #42
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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I think it's weird that during a FG a holder can be on a knee, catch the snap and then get up and throw a pass. Seems like they would be ruled down. I know it's the rule but it's just kinda weird.
You can't be down before you get the ball, for this reason you may get the ball with a knee down than get up and play normally, remember when Shaw corralled a boggled snap and took off with it and they had to go to the tape to figure out if his knee touched before or after he grabbed the ball?
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:03 PM   #43
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Disagree. If the line to gain was made and THEN the foul happened, then the team should not be penalized after the fact. That's kind of the point behind dead ball and I know you know that cause you seem like one of the coaches that actually knows the rules...or at least the one about the knee being down. ;-)
Well played sir

My reason for the 1st and 25 is that it would be like a hold that happens past the first down but backs the ball up to a 1st and 4. It would also be similar to how a false start makes it 1st and 15. I know it won't change, but I still think it would be a better deterrent to after the whistle behavior.
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:33 PM   #44
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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You can't be down before you get the ball, for this reason you may get the ball with a knee down than get up and play normally, remember when Shaw corralled a boggled snap and took off with it and they had to go to the tape to figure out if his knee touched before or after he grabbed the ball?
You can't be down unless you have possession and he never had possession to start, but if he started with his knee up and then it went down, yes, the ball would be dead
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:38 PM   #45
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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So, what happens after the offense gets the two points? Do they continue as normal, but the offense gets two more points? Would it be a kind of "reverse safety" where the team that was on defense free-kicks to the team that was on offense?
Yeah. I'm not sure what it would be called, but the idea is simply to make it so both sides would be penalized equally instead of the defense getting two points since that would be the lowest possible score a defense could get and the offense getting three points for the same reason. I guess it would still be a safety since the team who scores the two points would get the ball right after via free kick.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:46 PM   #46
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Yeah. I'm not sure what it would be called, but the idea is simply to make it so both sides would be penalized equally instead of the defense getting two points since that would be the lowest possible score a defense could get and the offense getting three points for the same reason. I guess it would still be a safety since the team who scores the two points would get the ball right after via free kick.
So, here's a scenario:

A team is driving in the last few seconds of the game, down by 5 points. They get to the 2 yard line with 10 seconds left. What is to stop the defense from intentionally getting a penalty to give up the 2 points, still be ahead, and get to kick the ball to the offense and put them back around mid-field if not farther back?
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:49 PM   #47
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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So, here's a scenario:

A team is driving in the last few seconds of the game, down by 5 points. They get to the 2 yard line with 10 seconds left. What is to stop the defense from intentionally getting a penalty to give up the 2 points, still be ahead, and get to kick the ball to the offense and put them back around mid-field if not farther back?
Nothing. What's to stop an offense from intentionally taking a safety for the same reason right now? Obviously, that already happens, so I fail to see the difference.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:51 PM   #48
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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So, here's a scenario:

A team is driving in the last few seconds of the game, down by 5 points. They get to the 2 yard line with 10 seconds left. What is to stop the defense from intentionally getting a penalty to give up the 2 points, still be ahead, and get to kick the ball to the offense and put them back around mid-field if not farther back?
There is a rule in the HS rulebook that specifically mentions travesty of the game.

ART. 5 . . . Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.

PENALTY: Unfair act the referee enforces any penalty he considers equitable, including the award of a score (S27). Repeated fouls (Art. 2) the game may be forfeited. Hiding the ball under a jersey, (Art. 3) (S27) 15 yards basic spot. Using illegal kicking tee, (Art. 4), (S27) 15 yards basic spot.
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Old 05-19-2014, 05:02 PM   #49
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Nothing. What's to stop an offense from intentionally taking a safety for the same reason right now? Obviously, that already happens, so I fail to see the difference.
In what scenario would the offense do this for the same reason? I know offenses take safeties intentionally for various reasons (USC did it when Holtz was here), but I fail to see how the two are equal.
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Old 05-19-2014, 05:12 PM   #50
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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In what scenario would the offense do this for the same reason? I know offenses take safeties intentionally for various reasons (USC did it when Holtz was here), but I fail to see how the two are equal.
The offense is in very poor field position (like inside the 5), so in order to prevent a turnover right on the goal line or punting from the endzone, offenses sometimes take the intentional safety and simply take the chance of the defense stopping the other team to close out the game. Ordinarily, this is done with very little time left in the game. I believe we did it in Starkville at the end of the game Lattimore tore his ACL.
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Old 05-19-2014, 05:23 PM   #51
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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The offense is in very poor field position (like inside the 5), so in order to prevent a turnover right on the goal line or punting from the endzone, offenses sometimes take the intentional safety and simply take the chance of the defense stopping the other team to close out the game. Ordinarily, this is done with very little time left in the game. I believe we did it in Starkville at the end of the game Lattimore tore his ACL.
True. I guess my point is more of, in that scenario, the offense has to at least snap the ball and, in theory, give the defense a chance to prevent it. In the other scenario, the defense can cause a penalty without the ball even being snapped, so the offense has no chance to do anything about it.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:13 PM   #52
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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True. I guess my point is more of, in that scenario, the offense has to at least snap the ball and, in theory, give the defense a chance to prevent it. In the other scenario, the defense can cause a penalty without the ball even being snapped, so the offense has no chance to do anything about it.
Your scenario would be abused by defenses. As a D every time a team got inside the 5 you'd take a penalty. There is literally no negative to it, since giving up 2 points is better than the likely out come of either a FG or TD. This plan has so many flaws. I know you aren't in support of it, just saying it wouldn't work.

Also I don't see the other poster complaining about PI in the end zone or defensive holding that prevents a TD not being an automatic TD. This rule suggestion would make no sense whatso ever.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:27 PM   #53
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Your scenario would be abused by defenses. As a D every time a team got inside the 5 you'd take a penalty. There is literally no negative to it, since giving up 2 points is better than the likely out come of either a FG or TD. This plan has so many flaws. I know you aren't in support of it, just saying it wouldn't work.

Also I don't see the other poster complaining about PI in the end zone or defensive holding that prevents a TD not being an automatic TD. This rule suggestion would make no sense whatso ever.
The bolded was my main point. Though, I wouldn't say there is no negative. You give up two points and the offense keeps the ball, albeit further away from the goal line. Your defense stays on the field longer, the offense gets another chance to score, etc.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:15 PM   #54
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the tuck rule
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:47 PM   #55
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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There are a couple of rules I wish were in college that the pros have. The one you named is one of them. I also wish PI penalties against the defense were spot fouls.

And for both college and pro ball, I wish they would get rid of automatic first downs due to a penalty when the penalty yardage wouldn't be enough to give the offense the first down. It just doesn't make sense to me that a team could be backed way up (something like 3rd and 25), the defense gets called for a penalty like defensive holding or even a personal foul, and the offense gets a free first down.

I remember a few years back UGA and UT were playing in Knoxville, and UGA ended up in 3rd and 57. If UT had been called for one of the penalties in question, then UGA would've been bailed out even though their own penalties put them in the situation. How would that make sense to say one penalty is worse than all the ones the other team had? Here's the video:

I remember watching this when it happened. Had forgotten about it until I saw this.
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Old 05-19-2014, 10:12 PM   #56
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

Basically, everyone is fine with the rules more or less favoring the offense when it comes to penalties. Since most (if not all) of us posting in this thread are fans of a certain college team that relies heavily on defense, I find the observation surprising. But that's fine.
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Old 05-20-2014, 11:18 AM   #57
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

Different subject, but how is spiking the ball to stop the clock not "intentional grounding"? Seems like it is more like intentional grounding than anything else.
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:03 PM   #58
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Different subject, but how is spiking the ball to stop the clock not "intentional grounding"? Seems like it is more like intentional grounding than anything else.

Hahaha, yeah, it is. The spiking rule came about for convenience-sake, I believe. It used to be that if a team wanted to kill the clock, the QB would snap the ball and throw it harmlessly over the head of a wideout. Then the officials had to retrieve the ball from deep into the bench, or in the first row of seats. You knew it was coming, and what it was, but it couldn't be argued that it wasn't an 'oooops' pass. Allowing a spike is just more convenient and quicker.
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Old 06-09-2014, 08:46 PM   #59
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Not true. In HS the holder can start the play with his knee down and then run a fake.
I just reread something and i came back to this thread...i was talking about the lsu flip of the ball over the holder's shoulder...can't do that in HS football.
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