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Old 06-29-2014, 03:09 PM   #121
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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Originally Posted by Lalli25 View Post
Jordan hadn't played baseball in 20 years and went out and played at a high level in short time. Many analyst say he'd have been a 30/30 guy if he had stayed with it.

It isn't about being the biggest it is about putting bigger and better athletes into the soccer pool. No one means that LeBron specifically would go play soccer tomorrow but elite type athletes who just aren't able to make it in the NFL or NBA were to grow up in soccer, they'd make the USA dominant.

I just don't get how soccer fans continue to argue that bigger, stronger and faster athletes wouldn't make the USA team better.
Again, that is a myth. Our players aren't that small, they aren't that slow either, they just aren't good with the ball at their feet, is that simple. The level here is just not as good because kids don't play as much soccer as other kids around the world.

The American mentality is part of the problem, our coaches focus too much on big and fast, in D1 college soccer, we have 6 3" dudes that can't even show co nfidence on a 3 yard pass and d1 college coaches will prefer big players with limited skill.

Be "physical" is the mentality that hurts American soccer the most, while big and fast doesnt hurt, the Peles and the Maradonas are the ones winning championships.

Look at Lebron, as dominant as he is, he will pass the ball in the last few seconds, the shooting skill is not there...
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:11 PM   #122
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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Beckham made about 5 mil a year
But he was at the top....what's the average.

My point is this....as long as kids can make more money playing football, baseball and basketball, the best athletes in the US won't end up playing soccer.
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:23 PM   #123
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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But he was at the top....what's the average.

My point is this....as long as kids can make more money playing football, baseball and basketball, the best athletes in the US won't end up playing soccer.
They can make it in Madrid or London, that if they are that good...
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:44 PM   #124
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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Again, that is a myth. Our players aren't that small, they aren't that slow either, they just aren't good with the ball at their feet, is that simple. The level here is just not as good because kids don't play as much soccer as other kids around the world.

The American mentality is part of the problem, our coaches focus too much on big and fast, in D1 college soccer, we have 6 3" dudes that can't even show co nfidence on a 3 yard pass and d1 college coaches will prefer big players with limited skill.

Be "physical" is the mentality that hurts American soccer the most, while big and fast doesnt hurt, the Peles and the Maradonas are the ones winning championships.

Look at Lebron, as dominant as he is, he will pass the ball in the last few seconds, the shooting skill is not there...
You need to top bringing other sports analogies into it, because you are making bad references. Jordan won 2 titles by passing the ball to win the game. Does he have bad shooting skills? LeBron shot like 45% from 3 this year. Making a pass doesn't mean you don't have the skill, it just is dictated by the D.

Our soccer players aren't short compared to the rest of the world, duh, which why we say just imagine if we used actually elite athletes to play soccer. Your whole argument is based on the fact there are no elite level athletes like we are discussing playing. This only proves the point that soccer is not played by the top athletes and that if America could get it's better physical athletes playing soccer, we'd be the top team in the world.

Do you ever think that so many of the USA players struggle with playing the ball between their feet, because thy aren't very good athletes? It's amazing what elite athletes can do and make look easy when they play a sport. Soccer in America isn't elite because this illogical mindset is the same as those who are running it; not because they don't take kid at 8 from their parents and put them in some academy.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:07 PM   #125
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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You need to top bringing other sports analogies into it, because you are making bad references. Jordan won 2 titles by passing the ball to win the game. Does he have bad shooting skills? LeBron shot like 45% from 3 this year. Making a pass doesn't mean you don't have the skill, it just is dictated by the D.

Our soccer players aren't short compared to the rest of the world, duh, which why we say just imagine if we used actually elite athletes to play soccer. Your whole argument is based on the fact there are no elite level athletes like we are discussing playing. This only proves the point that soccer is not played by the top athletes and that if America could get it's better physical athletes playing soccer, we'd be the top team in the world.

Do you ever think that so many of the USA players struggle with playing the ball between their feet, because thy aren't very good athletes? It's amazing what elite athletes can do and make look easy when they play a sport. Soccer in America isn't elite because this illogical mindset is the same as those who are running it; not because they don't take kid at 8 from their parents and put them in some academy.

Explain this illogical mindset. JK is managing the US program top down and is very familiar working with top athletes who are large and elite.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:11 PM   #126
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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Explain this illogical mindset. JK is managing the US program top down and is very familiar working with top athletes who are large and elite.
I'm not talking about JK, he can only work with what he has. I'm talking about the US soccer community idea of having bigger stronger and faster players will somehow not make a better team.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:13 PM   #127
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

^^^^^^

Additionally there are now programs to standardize playing style from the youth level up and use certain youth clubs in major cities as feeders to the nationsl team program. Part if this is focusing less on game results and more on style and player development. The goal is not necessaryly to produce the best/winningest youth club teams but to ID the best talent to feed into the usmnt.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:17 PM   #128
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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I'm not talking about JK, he can only work with what he has. I'm talking about the US soccer community idea of having bigger stronger and faster players will somehow not make a better team.
Got it. I don't think that is the mindset though. We have some very fast players - Yedlin is a speedster, Bedoya and Beasley are very fast as well. We have defenses that are 6'6" and 6'4".

Will the talent get better over the next 20 yrs? - likely. But I don't think you're going to see 6'5" 230 lbs guys at every position. Not that it wouldn't be awesome if we could field a team like that who also possesses the foot skill, dexterity, and endurance combined with crazy size and power.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:11 PM   #129
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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Serious question here.

I know this is going to make me sound like a xenophobe, but I think we can pretty much agree that among the 3 sports that America widely loves and plays (basketball, football, baseball)...we are the best in the world at them. I know football is only really played in America, but argument still stands.

That means many or most of the fastest, tallest, strongest, smartest, agile, and talented athletes in the world are playing these 3 sports in America.

My question is- do the most talented athletes in the world, specifically in America, PLAY soccer? I'm not questioning if the players current on the USMNT are some of the *best* who currently play soccer. I hope you follow me.

One example, which is quite a microcosm of the situation I am trying to explain...is my sports childhood growing up. I played all sports and soccer was one of them. I was really good at it but at age 12 or 13 when the seasons interfered with baseball, I quit it and never looked back. The better and most athletic soccer players did the same along with me. The ones who stayed back and weren't cut out for football or baseball ended up playing throughout high school. These soccer players we left behind eventually were considered "good" at soccer years later in high school and even made it to the state championship one year. I knew my teammates and myself were 10x more talented than them, but we didn't care enough about soccer to tell them that and take away their fun.

But...what if that is the situation all over America in some sense?

If Lebron James, Michael Jordan, Yasel Puig, Calvin Johnson, LeSean McCoy, Richard Sherman, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, Adrian Peterson, Mike Trout, etc etc etc went the route of soccer when I did...what would it spell for soccer? I believe they would dominate the sport. "Soccer is a different game they wouldn't succeed at" is certainly a laughable defense, since most of the best athletes in professional US sports were also great at numerous others.

So I am not trying to *diss* soccer here, but I really don't believe the players on the USMNT or on any professional US team are the best athletes our country has to offer. They are playing other sports.


I am not certain but in my opinion, steel sharpens steel.

In the rest of the world soccer is way more popular and is taken much more serious at the earliest stages of competition and development.

My point is that it is logical to assume that average youth soccer internationally is filled with kids who, on average, provide tougher challenges to the soccer players coming up.

If this is the case, you will get the better players internationally than domestically.



I thought that maybe climate and local conditions (socio-economic) also could be factors but you have teams from Europe that have just as much success as those from the equator and it's hot climates year-round.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:15 PM   #130
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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Got it. I don't think that is the mindset though. We have some very fast players - Yedlin is a speedster, Bedoya and Beasley are very fast as well. We have defenses that are 6'6" and 6'4".

Will the talent get better over the next 20 yrs? - likely. But I don't think you're going to see 6'5" 230 lbs guys at every position. Not that it wouldn't be awesome if we could field a team like that who also possesses the foot skill, dexterity, and endurance combined with crazy size and power.
I agree. I think Altidore is an example of what type of attackers we could have if we were to get some of these other sports athletes playing soccer their whole life.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:37 PM   #131
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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I agree. I think Altidore is an example of what type of attackers we could have if we were to get some of these other sports athletes playing soccer their whole life.
Yep. I'm with you there.

I still think that for the next 10 yrs or so, forwards will continue to be smaller players. They are quicker, lower center if gravity and more agile. However when you find a big man with skills like Zlatan, it is something special.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:22 PM   #132
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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Yep. I'm with you there.

I still think that for the next 10 yrs or so, forwards will continue to be smaller players. They are quicker, lower center if gravity and more agile. However when you find a big man with skills like Zlatan, it is something special.
If we had 23 Ibrahimovic, we will trash everybody but very few people in the world can reach that level.

If you think the Brazil of Pele and the Barcelona of Xavi and Puyol, their weren't that big but technical skillset was unreal.

People like Michael Vick with footwork and good with the ball, then we will dominate but lets be realistic, how many people like Michael Vick you have in the nfl? Very few people in the world is that quick, Messi being one of them.

Yes big and fast ia good but we have to make sure our boys develop.world class technique also.

Look at Mexico, they got destroyed today by Robben.

Robben is so far the most dominant player in the tournament, guess what? Robben is 6' and is a stud of acceleration and quickness, he is a stud with the ball at his feet too.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:30 PM   #133
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James Rodriguez has been the most dominant player in the tournament
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:35 PM   #134
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James Rodriguez has been the most dominant player in the tournament
Robben has played vs better opponents, I have Rodriguez in second place.

In fact I think if Robben keeps dominating, the Dutch are going all the way, if Ramos couldn't stop Robben, I dont see any other defender doing it.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:06 PM   #135
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Robben has played vs better opponents, I have Rodriguez in second place.

In fact I think if Robben keeps dominating, the Dutch are going all the way, if Ramos couldn't stop Robben, I dont see any other defender doing it.
pft, the ONLY think Ramos stopped was the dreams of every fan in Spain.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:19 PM   #136
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Default Re: Talent Level In Professional Soccer?

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If we had 23 Ibrahimovic, we will trash everybody but very few people in the world can reach that level.

If you think the Brazil of Pele and the Barcelona of Xavi and Puyol, their weren't that big but technical skillset was unreal.

People like Michael Vick with footwork and good with the ball, then we will dominate but lets be realistic, how many people like Michael Vick you have in the nfl? Very few people in the world is that quick, Messi being one of them.

Yes big and fast ia good but we have to make sure our boys develop.world class technique also.

Look at Mexico, they got destroyed today by Robben.

Robben is so far the most dominant player in the tournament, guess what? Robben is 6' and is a stud of acceleration and quickness, he is a stud with the ball at his feet too.
Do you watch other sports? Like actually know the players and about the measurables, not just see who wins? The NFL combine happens each year and you can find easily 50 guys, who won't even make an NFL team, who can run 4.0 20 yard shuttles. There are so many insane raw athletes out there doing nothing. If they'd chosen soccer they'd be starting for the USA now.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:31 PM   #137
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Do you watch other sports? Like actually know the players and about the measurables, not just see who wins? The NFL combine happens each year and you can find easily 50 guys, who won't even make an NFL team, who can run 4.0 20 yard shuttles. There are so many insane raw athletes out there doing nothing. If they'd chosen soccer they'd be starting for the USA now.
It could be but you do need a lot of skills to play at that level, I keep repeating, is just a myth, they could be great soccer players or not but having more options is always good .

At Dutch Fork, we had our start running back on the team back in the days, kid with last name byrd, he played a few games but the skill was not there, coach liked him that's why he was on the team, he was just fast as hell.

In international soccer you have to start playing with the elites at least at 14, if not you won't catch up.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:42 PM   #138
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pft, the ONLY think Ramos stopped was the dreams of every fan in Spain.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:33 PM   #139
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I think we are.

Good pitching beats good hitting.

In a seven game series I don't think there is any country than can match our pitching rotation. Only problem is there won't be a competition where we can see this happen.

WBC is shit because teams don't let their best players go.
seems like the best pitcher in the world is from Japan right now
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:42 PM   #140
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Do you watch other sports? Like actually know the players and about the measurables, not just see who wins? The NFL combine happens each year and you can find easily 50 guys, who won't even make an NFL team, who can run 4.0 20 yard shuttles. There are so many insane raw athletes out there doing nothing. If they'd chosen soccer they'd be starting for the USA now.
Can those guys play NBA? No.

It's not just about athletic tangibles. Comes down to skill, talent for the game, and (as many have pointed out) exposure to top-flight competition. There's some serious filtering that takes place in European/South-American futbol.
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