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Old 08-31-2014, 08:46 PM   #1
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Default Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

Yes I know that we are only one game into the season and I do not want this to be mistaken as a overreaction/under-reaction thread about what happened on Thursday. I am just hoping for a genuine discussion on what South Carolina's future looks in relation to the other teams in the SEC.

EAST:

UGA- Always has great athletes, haven't gotten over the hump in recent years but will continually recruit well/always have solid coaching/good facilities

TENN- I honestly believe is a sleeping giant possibly bigger than where they use to be. Fans and players have bought into what Butch Jones is selling and he is recruiting really well. They have improved facilities and could be really trouble in the next few years.

UK- I think Mark Stoops has done well in recruiting and efforts to improve their football facilities and standing in a "basketball" school. I could see them flip flopping with Vandy in the aspect of possibly reaching 8-9 wins for a couple years in a row.

Vandy - James Franklin leaving might have set this program back further than anyone could have realized.

Mizzou- An enigma to me. They are improving their stadium and seem to like Pinkel but I just cant buy into them being a contender year in and year out but will come up every 2-3 years and surprise people (i.e. last year)

UF - Muschamp is making strides to improve their offense. They will ALWAYS have athletes but he is not liked well and I do not see him lasting there much longer even if he does have a better season this years

I want do into all the West but:

Auburn with Malzahn is here to stay, Bama is Bama

Texas A&M - Since we play them every year Ill say this. They have money we could only dream of, a coach that I think is out to prove something and could turn into a giant in the game. They have a rich recruiting base that doesn't have cycles it just reloads. This is a game we are going to dread having to play year in and year out. However will Sumlin get plucked up by the NFL only time will tell? Also have you seen their new football facilities? Makes our new upgrades look 5-10 years behind.


With all that said our unprecedented success has been great, however is it sustainable, do you think we recruit well enough to provide us a foundation to whomever comes after the HBC? I mention all this for the seemingly lack of swagger and attitude of a building program that many of these other teams have. We seem to have some similar issues year in and year out (i.e. starting slow, trouble vs. lesser opponents, dropping that one game a year we shouldn't) Solutions? Am I a crazy?
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

Just when you think you won't post for a while. But I'll do it anyway.

We are in a pickle honestly. Our state really isn't bad at putting out Div I players, but the problem is that our neighbors are the top 10, barring California, Ohio, Texas, and maybe Pennsylvania, though that isn't what it used to be.

We are one of the smaller population southern states. Mississippi, Kentucky, and Arkansas are the only ones with a smaller population if you want to say Arkansas is southern. That said I've seen tons of different breakdowns on this, but Louisiana and Mississippi generally wind up producing more NFL players per capita when you use that for a proxy for how much talent you are putting out.

Now our state puts out more talent than Kentucky and Arkansas, but we usually wind up losing some players to the school up the road.

The biggest advantage we have recruiting wise is how close we are to Georgia and metro Atlanta. And Auburn does that one better (Clemson too honestly).

We have no national presence in recruiting. Never have, unless a guy like Holtz or Spurrier drags in a guy like Brewer or the like by his rep. We don't have an offense that has an identity and makes guys in Texas say "Man I have to play in that. They offer me a visit and I am going."

Plus I think people need to face facts. Columbia just isn't that attractive to a lot of recruits. Be honest about it, wine and cheese cracks aside. Would you rather go to school in the Triangle area if you have no connections to Columbia, or Columbia?

You can rinse and repeat for a number of other locations nationally, and in the SEC.

Things aren't like they used to be either. Whether they can take their programs to where they want to go or not, all this new money is bringing in a new breed of coach. Stoops and Jones are both doing a bang up job recruiting all things considered.

We may be spending money on facilities, but other teams are too. And the only schools that are less well heeled than us, even in the SEC are the Mississippi schools. Tennessee budget crisis is a blip in the bigger picture, they still make considerably more revenue than we do. The other schools... as a rule of thumb the farther north you go the more money there is. Then there A&M's oil lease money, Arkansas' chicken/walmart/even oil money, and other places that are just in states that there is more money floating around in like Florida and Georgia, and it just floats in somehow. Not that their athletic department revenue is poor to begin with.

In the end we will always have lesser facilities than most of the SEC schools. If it is effective, they will just plain have more money to throw at it.

I'm going to cut this short. But the next guy we hire after Spurrier is maybe the most important one we ever make. They are going to have to guess right. I really don't think their is another name like Spurrier or Holtz that is going to be looking when that does happen.

We are going to have to get one of these young guys that lives and dies by recruiting. Whether you hate him or not, James Franklin would have been ideal for us.

Of course he has other fish to fry.

Right now I think we get recruits more from Spurrier's reputation, and the fact that he is constantly in the media's eye. If he wasn't in that any more than say Dan Mullen, we wouldn't recruit nearly as well.

That is a long winded way to say that regardless of this season, competitiveness or even winning seasons aren't a given, despite our recent run.

We could do very well in a number of conferences across the country with players we recruit. But our neighborhood is some kind of Hobessian war zone.

A lot of our problems would go away if we could get Clemson to drop football. Of course they could say the same. Their situation isn't as bad because there are only a couple of team in the ACC (FSU, Miami) that are just inherently better, and only a few that really should be better (UNC). But whether they come out and say it or even think it, they have some of the same problems we do in regards to getting the kind of players to win the national championship.

I mean look at yesterday. Maybe Danny recruited better a year or two, but this is the best recruiting run they have ever had the past few years. And even if it stayed close on the field for a half, the eyeball test and score did not lie.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

Honestly all of me doesn't want to say this but the way its looks right now I think our chances for an SEC and National Title may have passed us. It really feels as though we have plateaued at 11-3 and no championships as in all those 3 straight 11 seasons we dropped at least 1 game we had no business losing, that's not even mentioning the year we won the East. We don't have a championship mentality like Bama whose goal is National Title or bust, still too many fans are happy with winning 11 games. I remember the days of just getting to a bowl was an accomplishment but now not winning championships is unacceptable, we had too much talent the last 3 years to not have won an SEC championship. We need to be able to ignore the hype and focus on winning championships rather than what the so-called experts on the 4 Letter say.

UGA is poised to lock control of the East for the next few years at least, they are back. UT is a team that is 2-3 years to being the Fulmer UT of old. UF is getting top talent as always but I don't think as long as Muschamp is there they won't the UF under Spurrier. UK is an up and comer now that they have decided they want to be more than just a basketball school, they might not be the UK under the Bear but Butch is going to build a good program up there again. Vandy I think achieved everything they will every achieve before Franklin left, they are going back in the cellar for a long time. Mizzou the jury is still out on them they could repeat this year as East Champs, this is not a team to take lightly as they have gotten adjusted to life in the SEC, they could give us a fits every year.

Not even to try and break down the west Bama, Auburn, LSU, and aTm are going to be battling for superiority of the West but Ole Miss isn't far from being in the SEC Championship game.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

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Originally Posted by sunbeam View Post
But the next guy we hire after Spurrier is maybe the most important one we ever make. They are going to have to guess right. I really don't think their is another name like Spurrier or Holtz that is going to be looking when that does happen.

We are going to have to get one of these young guys that lives and dies by recruiting.
im glad you did post ... i think you are 100% correct here.. i think i want someone who is going to make their name and establish a legacy here and not someone who made their name somewhere else first... i think we have the ad who understand that ... HBC has always been great and developing players but it would be nice to get some players who are 5* and can be developed to be superstars... we had Latti whose career unfortunate got cut short and Clowney who was great but beyond that we havent had a superstar QB (love shaw btw) or WR that was a complete game changer since alshon ... i just feel like our margin of error is beginning to shrink considerably when looking forward .. these next 2 years could really be a crossroad for the future of the program
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

We caught a perfect storm there for a while with some of the states top recruits also being some of the top nationally (Jeffery, Clowney, Latimore, etc). The talent pool has grown significantly more shallow in recent years. This to me is the biggest hurdle. SOS has done a fantastic job of keeping the best talent in state, but our state's best is no longer elite. We will pick up the occasional solid recruit from UGA or Florida, but we can't count on getting top shelf players from those states on any kind of regular basis.

The next biggest issue is that we simply can't recruit nationally. For all of our success and Spurrier's name recognition, we just don't get recruits out of the Texas or California gold mines. When you consider going up against UF, FSU and Miami for Florida talent (Clemson also seems to do very well there for some reason or another) getting that state's talent is a tall order as well.

We really were just fortunate that we had such a good run of top talent in our state and I'm not sure what we do now that it's no longer the case.

The third factor for me is Clemson. We have 2 programs in the state that are currently nationally relevant. The aforementioned diminishing in-state recruiting talent makes having 2 nationally programs nearly impossible unless you can recruit nationally. Dabo ha many shortcomings as a coach but, say what you will, he's a doggone heckuva of a recruiter.

As for SOS's replacement? Who knows? I don't know that there's anyone in-house who excites me. I know SOS takes pride in his approach to coaching, and it works for him. But I think the next guy we get needs to be a Saban type who lives and breathes the job. I'm not knocking SOS at all, but maybe the reason Bama has those championships under Saban and maybe the reason they have all those great recruiting classes is because the job is his life. I dunno. Obviously, I think we need to go young. Do we stick with someone who has strong ties to recruiting in this area? Do we look for a west coast guy who has recruiting in-roads in that part of the country?

I wouldn't say the window has closed already for us, but I'd say it is in the process of closing. Next year's recruiting class is absolutely critical. It's looking great right now and we have to keep it together at all costs.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

It would be nice to get a head coach in the same fashion as Fla picked up Urban Myer. Some one young who has proved themselves else where. The only thing to bring a top notch coach to USC is the fact we are in the SEC. Everyone lose may disagree with me but that's how I look at it
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

I keep hearing Mark Dantonio, maybe even Pat Narduzzi. Problem is no one knows how long SOS will stay, and top tier coaches don't last forever.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

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Originally Posted by Pw00132 View Post
It would be nice to get a head coach in the same fashion as Fla picked up Urban Myer. Some one young who has proved themselves else where. The only thing to bring a top notch coach to USC is the fact we are in the SEC. Everyone lose may disagree with me but that's how I look at it
The risk with doing the Urban Meyer thing is risk getting a Darrin Horn. Coaches from the non-major conference schools are hit and miss. Urban Meyers and Jim Tressels are rare finds. I would lean towards a young offensive-minded coach who can bring a top shelf DC. But I'd also be ok with a Nick Saban.

No matter what, it'll be a crap shoot and we just have to hope we guess right.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

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Originally Posted by CockyGuy View Post
I keep hearing Mark Dantonio, maybe even Pat Narduzzi. Problem is no one knows how long SOS will stay, and top tier coaches don't last forever.
Eh...Dantonio is already 58.

I also don't want an NFL guy. No matter what they say during the interview process, any NFL guy will head back for the pros if he has success in college.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

We have just started changing the culture here at SC (SOS was the start - not the start and end). We must make football even more of a priority in order to go to the next level. We need to do the following:

1. Expand recruiting. Dedicate more resources, expand footprint to include Texas, top five recruiting should be our goal every year.
2. Stop promoting within all the time on the coaching staff. For example, when EJ or even BL left we should have replaced these vacancies with proven equal or better talent.
3. We need to go big on facility upgrades. Stop chipping at this $10 million every other year. WB needs to be beautified, modernized, upgraded, etc. Stop diverting so much funds to non-revenue sport facilities. Those will come in time.
4. Hold the BOT and AD accountable. Demand results. These people have more support and money than ever before; therefore, they need to produce.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

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Originally Posted by CockyGuy View Post
I keep hearing Mark Dantonio, maybe even Pat Narduzzi. Problem is no one knows how long SOS will stay, and top tier coaches don't last forever.
I don't think Dantonio is leaving Michigan State till he retires. Just a guess but I expect him to be there another 5 to 10 years, and not going to leave for another school.

I've seen Narduzzi mentioned as a candidate for a few jobs, and he certainly has the credentials. But geez, other than a West Coast guy could we get anyone who is further from our recruiting grounds?

It's early still, but the next guy has to be a lights out recruiter. I don't want to start a Chad bashing thread, but a hotshot coordinator who isn't known as a recruiter won't do it for us, so some of the names who come up in the next few years aren't going to work for us.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

Yall hit the nail on the head. And explained it perfectly. Its pretty sspookie
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:34 PM   #13
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

One of the more realistic and accurate threads in a while. Great posts guys
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

I think y'all will be OK. You may have some off years but nothing like the late 90s. Florida fell off after Tebow and more after Meyer. 2012 Florida was lucky and 2013 very unlucky. Florida will be a player again, if not with Muschamp....someone else. SC has improved in many ways, not just in the HC department. A good AD will keep things above water and find SC a good coach. There will always be some rotation at the top of the SEC East, you just want to be in the rotation.

Clemson I am less confident about. If Clemson dips more than SC (a good possibility), SC will win the recruiting battle. If CU does not man up, some other ACC teams may jump them and the West/ Bowden era is back again with a huge buyout hung around their neck.

Rome is not burning yet.
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:05 PM   #15
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

Play ball and recruit, it will work out when all these crystal balls drop. I guess some here now knows the future.
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

I think that we will continue to be a cyclical program, a few up years and then a number of several down years. We have just been in an up cycle recently...I attribute the length of the up trend to SOS, god help us when he leaves. Holtz showed promise of spurrier, brought us up but only for a short lived cycle. I fear that we are in for a downward trend unless we can find a young mastermind that wants to build upon the foundation we have constructed under SOS and Tanner. At this point I am really running out of things to say, however, many of the original posts were very lengthy and I don't want to be an outlier. I need to be able to fit in more, my parents say I am a bit of an outcast and I should work to become more socially integrated. I want to thank cockytalk and the academy for my recent awards, there are so many people I want to thank but I left my thank you notes in the limo before getting out to walk down the red carpet. You know, it's really all of the little people behind the scenes that make the dream a reality. Just remember that working hard is just a path to working hard and all the smart people have figured out creative shortcuts or how to game the system. In closing I would like to recognize all of the public service efforts of so many people. the als ice bucket challenge has been a stroke of pure genius widely lauded by all of us on hard wet nipple alert. good night and thank you
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

Regarding post Spurrier era hires, a BOT member told a group of us in the spring that they'll go either 2 directions:

1) Look at a young head coach from a school that is consistently winning, comes from a coaching tree like Saban/Malzahn type. This coach would have to already have a reasonable buyout in his existing contract. And the coach would want to leave a Big 12 or ACC school, and make the jump to the SEC. Smaller Texas & Florida university coaches were also on the radar.

2) Stay in the SEC and swipe a top named coordinator or a lower tiered SEC school HC that is having consistent success (Ole Miss, Miss St, Vandy, UK, maybe Arky or Mizzou). Again, the buyout is going to have to work both ways--getting a new staff assembled & paying old staff severance.

Was told look for Spurrier to get to 100 wins at USC before he considered retiring.

Again, this pure speculation from a BOT member at a golf outing.

GO COCKS!!
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

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We have just started changing the culture here at SC (SOS was the start - not the start and end). We must make football even more of a priority in order to go to the next level. We need to do the following:

1. Expand recruiting. Dedicate more resources, expand footprint to include Texas, top five recruiting should be our goal every year.
2. Stop promoting within all the time on the coaching staff. For example, when EJ or even BL left we should have replaced these vacancies with proven equal or better talent.
3. We need to go big on facility upgrades. Stop chipping at this $10 million every other year. WB needs to be beautified, modernized, upgraded, etc. Stop diverting so much funds to non-revenue sport facilities. Those will come in time.
4. Hold the BOT and AD accountable. Demand results. These people have more support and money than ever before; therefore, they need to produce.
How do we do #1 in your opinion? You're right, of course, but it's not like we haven't been getting recruits from Texas because we haven't wanted them.
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

Art Briles.
That is all.
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: Gamecock football Long Term Future and the SEC

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How do we do #1 in your opinion? You're right, of course, but it's not like we haven't been getting recruits from Texas because we haven't wanted them.
Be prepared to spend more money. Establish relationships with Texas HS football coaches. You do not have to recruit the whole state. Target the greater Houston area and/or Dallas-Fortworth.
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