How long does it take?

[uscrob4]

I would like to start by saying, I am not a "negative nellie" or whatever it has been coined to call those who are negative. But I am very frustrated, and I have been in the wins and the loses. To be honest after sitting in the stadium and watching the Vandy game I came away thinking we would not win another game the rest of the year. I will also say that I know we have a lot of young players, but I think there is a saying that someone we know says, "it is what it is". Can't make players juniors and seniors through a season so we HAVE to play with what we have. One reason I am frustrated is yes our freshmen are making mistakes, but the mistakes that are hurting us the most are being made by UPPERCLASSMEN. missed tackles, dropped passes, still can't block, holding, offsides, other than Devin Taylor we don't have a single freshman or sophomore playing on the dline and we still can't get a consistent 4 man rush or stop the run. Who has cost the team off the field this year? freshmen, no its been a sophomore (who technically should be a junior because of a year at prep school) and a junior.
I run my mouth to say this. My problem is not getting beat. My problem is the way we still play and carry ourselves as a team.
How many years does it take to coach a team from stop making the same mistakes? Are we going to blame Demetrius Summer, Derrick Watson, Syvelle Newton, and all of the other players who have had off the field troubles for the mistakes our current players are making?
If we look at the team as a whole have we improved, not just this year, but have we improved in the past 5 years, 7 years, 10 years?
What is it going to take? Don't tell me discipline. We suspend a player for a game or three games for whatever reasons and UF suspsends a guy for a half. what is it going to take?

[bmwparts]

i agree with your statement, first let me say that spurrier has been successful in changing the fans expectations, because we are ready and willing and have been for a very long time and it wasnt to long ago we as fans were happy with being competitive against a #2 AUB team and we were told not to cheer a lossing team because of effort alone, but now were told we cant make them feel bad because their young????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????
Spurrier you changed our way of thinking to what it is today, so win or deal with it.

I to have heard all the excuses i can handle, its either we dont have a QB, or we dont have the WR's, or we dont have a Oline, EVERYBODY HERE ON OUR TEAM WAS BROUGHT HERE BY SPURRIER, THEY ARE ALL HIS GUYS!

if we win 2 out of the next 3 I'll take back everything i have said the past 2 days, because i love this team just as much as anybody, but i just dont see the win to win attitude from our coachs, tell me this what do you think a west coach would do with our guys to set up a offense?

I'll tell you
2 slot receivers (Moe & Sherm)
2 wide outs (Gurley & jeffreys)
1 RB/scat back (pass or run option) Miles

if we cant block, rework your offense spread it out so much we dump the ball as soon as it touchs Garcia's hands, quick slants, screens,etc

hawaii/texastech style offense with a bad azz sec defense, we have the guys to do this BUT SPURRIER WILL NOT UPDATE OR CHANGE HIS PLACE BOOK TO FIT THE PLAYERS HE HAS!

what he does is this, instead of changes some plays to fit the guys we have, we change the guys to fit the play and alot of the time this takes our play makers off the field

[uscfan1]

Don't know of you've ever been in a management position or not but these situations tie directly into our situation.

There are two types of managers. The rah-rah guy who has to get his guys going manually if you will for every instance(in this cae a football game).

then you have the business like guy. A guy who teaches the right things including decision making and work ethic, and lets the players come around in time. This is my idea on Spurrier. The good thing with this method is when your people come around on their own, they have it and will not let it go. It's in them to stay. We have guys who have not come around yet, tied with turnover in the staff and playing a ton of underclassmen. We play that many underclassmen b/c of injury and people leaving early. This alone through a huge kink in the chain. But rest assure when the guys come around and get their heads straight, then they will be productive here until it's time for them to leave.

One of my managers once told me that if I have to light the fire under you every time then that fire will only burn for a short time(then it will ahve to be lit again, over and over), but if you can lite that fire for yourself, then it will burn forever. This is one of the most truthfull statements I've have ever heard.

[uscrob4]

uscfan1, how long would you give a "manager" if he kept putting the same product on the "books" year after year? Would you keep a guy who continually had problems with his "employees" on and off the field, would you keep a guy whose empolyees keep making the same "business" mistakes, would you keep a manager who kept telling you "it is what it is", would you keep a manager who HAD been great in the past but refused to change his business model due to his prior success and thus couldn't get those under him over the proverbial hump?
I mean since we are relating football to business would you keep one of your managers who all of these above statements applied to?

[brat]

No one has a sure fire answer to this question, but it seems most people like to use a 5 year window for coaches to turn a program around.

For the lack of success this program has had historically, for the essentially dead in the water program SOS inherited, for all the unique difficulties that USC has to overcome that most programs do not:

Smallest southern state, smallest population, located directly between the SEC and ACC, only bordering two states, etc., I should think that time span has to be a bit longer, like 7 or 8 years, to see a really viable, upper tier program in this conference. Our program had further ground to make up and more to overcome, it is harder to do, so more time is required.

Other things which might be considered, is that SOS has had to learn that he could not do things here as he did in Florida, i.e. let recruits come to him, the need for year round recruiting, and simply understand that the way he is trying to do things, I would argue, is different than most Carolina coaches, namely build a program for long term, year in year out success, not work for a quick fix to build toward one good year, blow smoke to the fans and media and then wait for four or five years to build another solid one year team. He has also taken time away to build the look of the team in terms of improving facilities and even the look of the stadium and other such things to give us more of a USC/SEC look that lacked before to make it more appealing to the recruits, players, fans, and national media.

I honestly believe that SOS did not know how moribund the football program was when he took over or he might have had second thoughts. If memory serves, for instance, I think when he took over, there were lots of OL on the squad, but little did he know the talent level in them, so he admittedly made a mistake in not recruiting any his first year and it cost him.

SOS has made mistakes because he is learning as he makes the changes in the ways he did them at Florida. His biggest flaw seems to be in expecting people to have enough self respect and for others to do their jobs and be dedicated enough to give enough effort to want to play well and do so on every Saturday and he has expected many of his coaches to be professional enough to do their jobs without micromanaging. Admirable trait, but it hasn't worked too well thus far, so after sufficient time to give them a chance to prove their meddle, he got rid of many coaches last year. I think he wanted to see was it lack of talent, lack of coaching ability, or both that was producing poor results.

The last class he signed, the ones who are mostly playing now, are sadly, the biggest leaders on the team and that is in another way he has been changing. He is trying to get not just talent, but find dedicated players who are, for the lack of a better term "old school" mentality or more team oriented and are natural leaders and know how to lead, regardless of their age.

So, while in rambling, the first few classes he signed, are all in all, under performed and he has to take a good part of the blame, but I put as much on the kids for not always going flat out and giving it their best. It is a two way street.

We have all suffered for decades as Carolina fans and those before us, did, too. I say we have to ride out the storm until whenever SOS steps aside of his own accord. The progress has been incremental or one and a half steps forward, then one step back, but it is there and the upcoming recruiting class should have at least the same impact as the one from last year.

Like it or not, believe it or not, deny it or not, SOS, in his time here, has been the most successful coach at USC. I know that is modest, even in itself, but to throw it away, would be folly as it would destroy a promising recruiting class and then we would be starting all over again, under someone else who we have no honest reason to expect him to have any more success than anyone else who has ever been here.

[GameCocksOnTop88]

I agree, good post brat. Points sent.

[The Yancey]

Points to my friend Brat!

[NOBAMA]

I think this kind of pontificating is quite funny really. If you don't believe that the SEC is more like the NFL than regular college sports your fooling yourself. Every year teams lose players, ever year players get hurt, every team is a different team from year to year.

What we are dealing with like it or not is that the upper end teams have been building upon there talent base longer than the Cocks. We are getting there & we may even have a year where we get to the SEC Championship game in the next few, but until we are Consistently getting top 10 recruiting classes it will be hit or miss.

Now I know that your going to say (in a whiney girlish tone) "Well its Spurrier's job to recruit better". I admit to an extent that is true, but until we have one of those unexpected out of the box type of years & can follow it with another it won't happen.

I believe that over the next few years we will be fielding a top notch SEC team. For those who can't wait for it, turn off the TV & the radio, start watching something more soothing like figure skating, whatever you need to do- The Bitchin don't help.

[uscfan1]

so uscrob, with the shortened version of what I was sying and with the prolonged version from Brat.....then yes I would live with the coach we have right now for a bit longer. I think it will take at least 7-8 yrs to have this program where he wants it.

[GameCocksOnTop88]

Originally Posted by NOBAMA

I think this kind of pontificating is quite funny really. If you don't believe that the SEC is more like the NFL than regular college sports your fooling yourself. Every year teams lose players, ever year players get hurt, every team is a different team from year to year.

What we are dealing with like it or not is that the upper end teams have been building upon there talent base longer than the Cocks. We are getting there & we may even have a year where we get to the SEC Championship game in the next few, but until we are Consistently getting top 10 recruiting classes it will be hit or miss.

Now I know that your going to say (in a whiney girlish tone) "Well its Spurrier's job to recruit better". I admit to an extent that is true, but until we have one of those unexpected out of the box type of years & can follow it with another it won't happen.

I believe that over the next few years we will be fielding a top notch SEC team. For those who can't wait for it, turn off the TV & the radio, start watching something more soothing like figure skating, whatever you need to do- The Bitchin don't help.

Exactly right, well put. Points sent.

[Hog]

I thought this thread was gonna be a tootsie roll ad

[No Curse]

Originally Posted by brat

We have all suffered for decades as Carolina fans and those before us, did, too. I say we have to ride out the storm until whenever SOS steps aside of his own accord. The progress has been incremental or one and a half steps forward, then one step back, but it is there and the upcoming recruiting class should have at least the same impact as the one from last year.

Like it or not, believe it or not, deny it or not, SOS, in his time here, has been the most successful coach at USC. I know that is modest, even in itself, but to throw it away, would be folly as it would destroy a promising recruiting class and then we would be starting all over again, under someone else who we have no honest reason to expect him to have any more success than anyone else who has ever been here.

I could not agree with you more. I have said and still say that Spurrier should be here until he sees fit to go. Period. We need continuity, not a continuous 5-6 year coaching change, looking for a miracle. We need the kind of continuity that recruits can see. What recruit wants to go to a school where if he looks and says, "you know, this guy is in his 5th or 6th year and the fans are clammoring for his head, he may not be here once I get on campus". We have not ever been a great football team in my 40+++ years. Am I happy with poor performance or barely squeaking by winning against weak opponants? Hell no, after the Vandy and Tenn game I was as mad as I have been in a long time after a game, but I am perfectly content to wait as long as it takes with Spurrier. I would love to see him stay here as long as Bowden has been at Free Shoes U. Will that happen, probably not. We as fans are not willing to wait. We as fans have endured decades of mediocrity with an occaisional glimmer of success, but dont want to stick it out until it completely turns. We wont just wake up one season and be great. This will be a long and drawnout process. I would suspect that a perinially great football team is made up of numerous pieces of a puzzle that all have to be in place all or most all of the time. Spurrier is gradually getting these pieces of the puzzle in place if we will just be patient and give him time.

How many of us fans have been a UPI player of the year, 2 time all American, won a heisman, coached a heisman, won 6 SEC championships, been named 6 time SEC coach of the year, won one ACC championship (AT DUKE), named 2 time ACC coach of the year and won a National championship? Show of hands. Thats what I though. Then what makes us think we know better than he does what we need to fix this program.

[cjsgamecock]

Brat that was awesome man....pts....you should write for a living, if you already dont...

[Jurisprudent]

I firmly believe that if Spurrier can't get it done, it probably won't happen in my lifetime, sadly. He is our best chance - and the difficulty he is having only proves how hard of a job it really is.

Taking off the garnet glasses - we aren't a powerhouse and have never been a powerhouse, so any suggestion that we have some long standing tradition that would want to make all of the nation's best recruits naturally want to come here is questionable, at best, asinine at worst. That said, recruiting is getting better and better (as evidenced by the freshmen contribution this year), so there is evidence that SOS and company are changing the national perception of South Carolina and making it a place where the stars do want to play.

As for those that claim we should have recruited better before - I'm sure we made some mistakes in talent evaluations, but at the same time, it isn't like we were turning away countless 5 star athletes. We can't just have our pick of the litter, folks. Not yet, at least.

I'd much rather endure the pain of building a consistent team rather than a flash in the pan juco-loaded or however it happens type team. Maybe I'm wrong... but it seems we've tried the 5 years-and-fire routine before and it hasn't worked. As long as our team continues to compete (and we don't see signs of the last couple of games last year where they looked like they didn't even care about football), I have no problems with SOS. I know we had a bad game Saturday, but all I saw were young players making mistakes. I didn't see any signs of a team just packing it in because they don't care.

At the end of the day though, everyone is entitled to their opinion - I have no qualms with that. But I do find it troubling that some almost seem to want him to fail so that they can simply say "I was right."

[uscrob4]

Originally Posted by brat

No one has a sure fire answer to this question, but it seems most people like to use a 5 year window for coaches to turn a program around.

For the lack of success this program has had historically, for the essentially dead in the water program SOS inherited, for all the unique difficulties that USC has to overcome that most programs do not:

Smallest southern state, smallest population, located directly between the SEC and ACC, only bordering two states, etc., I should think that time span has to be a bit longer, like 7 or 8 years, to see a really viable, upper tier program in this conference. Our program had further ground to make up and more to overcome, it is harder to do, so more time is required.

Other things which might be considered, is that SOS has had to learn that he could not do things here as he did in Florida, i.e. let recruits come to him, the need for year round recruiting, and simply understand that the way he is trying to do things, I would argue, is different than most Carolina coaches, namely build a program for long term, year in year out success, not work for a quick fix to build toward one good year, blow smoke to the fans and media and then wait for four or five years to build another solid one year team. He has also taken time away to build the look of the team in terms of improving facilities and even the look of the stadium and other such things to give us more of a USC/SEC look that lacked before to make it more appealing to the recruits, players, fans, and national media.

I honestly believe that SOS did not know how moribund the football program was when he took over or he might have had second thoughts. If memory serves, for instance, I think when he took over, there were lots of OL on the squad, but little did he know the talent level in them, so he admittedly made a mistake in not recruiting any his first year and it cost him.

SOS has made mistakes because he is learning as he makes the changes in the ways he did them at Florida. His biggest flaw seems to be in expecting people to have enough self respect and for others to do their jobs and be dedicated enough to give enough effort to want to play well and do so on every Saturday and he has expected many of his coaches to be professional enough to do their jobs without micromanaging. Admirable trait, but it hasn't worked too well thus far, so after sufficient time to give them a chance to prove their meddle, he got rid of many coaches last year. I think he wanted to see was it lack of talent, lack of coaching ability, or both that was producing poor results.

The last class he signed, the ones who are mostly playing now, are sadly, the biggest leaders on the team and that is in another way he has been changing. He is trying to get not just talent, but find dedicated players who are, for the lack of a better term "old school" mentality or more team oriented and are natural leaders and know how to lead, regardless of their age.

So, while in rambling, the first few classes he signed, are all in all, under performed and he has to take a good part of the blame, but I put as much on the kids for not always going flat out and giving it their best. It is a two way street.

We have all suffered for decades as Carolina fans and those before us, did, too. I say we have to ride out the storm until whenever SOS steps aside of his own accord. The progress has been incremental or one and a half steps forward, then one step back, but it is there and the upcoming recruiting class should have at least the same impact as the one from last year.

Like it or not, believe it or not, deny it or not, SOS, in his time here, has been the most successful coach at USC. I know that is modest, even in itself, but to throw it away, would be folly as it would destroy a promising recruiting class and then we would be starting all over again, under someone else who we have no honest reason to expect him to have any more success than anyone else who has ever been here.

I agree the majority of the post especially the last four paragraphs. But my question is when are we going to stop making excuses?

1. All SEC East schools have to worry about ACC schools. Some of the SEC West schools have to worry about the Big 12. Florida has two ACC schools in their state. Georgia has GTech and Clemson. Tenn. and Kentucky have UVA, VTech, the four NC schools, and Illinois and Missouri The size of the state, has it changed since Spurrier got here? Can Spurrier not recruit outside of the state? For us to be a "viable upper tier team" in 7 to 8 years means in the next 2 to 3 years we have to be there. I am not saying we will not challenge but to be an upper tier team in 2 to 3 years I don't think we will be Florida, which is an upper tier team in three years. It will take more like 7 to 8 years from now.

2. Spurrier has made mistakes, recruiting and with the flaw of judging Character, but he hasn't done anything about either. He can't treat USC like Florida but he continues to. just last spring this message board was all up in arms because Spurrier was not at Byrnes on the first day coaches could visit and this summer he wasn't at a camp held by USC instead he was in a golf tournament. Is this going to change?

3. The team’s mentality has not changed in the last five years. all I heard was Ron Cooper was the one who pushed E Cook and Captain to go the pros and that Jared Cook got bad advice and they were putting themselves first and they quit on the team. Well this year Cooper is gone and those players with "bad attitudes" are gone and we have had 5+ instances this year where players put themselves first. When will that stop? At what point does the head coach not take responsibility for the attitude of his team when it is year after year and not just one or two bad apples?

4. Finally, I agree the program was horrid when he came but how come Bobby Johnson and Rich Brooks can succeed at building their programs quicker than Spurrier can at building his? 5 years ago we wouldn't have worried about losing to Vandy. 5 years ago we were still beating Kentucky. Now those teams are equal with us, admit it or not they are. Why have we not pulled away from them?

I am a Spurrier fan regardless of what I sound like, I am just saying at what point does Spurrier not need to take full responsibility for everything in this program?

[uscrob4]

Originally Posted by No Curse

How many of us fans have been a UPI player of the year, 2 time all American, won a heisman, coached a heisman, won 6 SEC championships, been named 6 time SEC coach of the year, won one ACC championship (AT DUKE), named 2 time ACC coach of the year and won a National championship? Show of hands. Thats what I though. Then what makes us think we know better than he does what we need to fix this program.

How many other coaches weren't the things that Spurrier was but still win ball games???? What does Spurrier's past have to do with our mediocrity????

[uscfan1]

Originally Posted by uscrob4

How many other coaches weren't the things that Spurrier was but still win ball games???? What does Spurrier's past have to do with our mediocrity????

The best thing for you to do is to answer that question yourself. This is the SEC. It's not going to be easy

How long is too long for you?

[uscrob4]

Originally Posted by NOBAMA

Now I know that your going to say (in a whiney girlish tone) "Well its Spurrier's job to recruit better". I admit to an extent that is true, but until we have one of those unexpected out of the box type of years & can follow it with another it won't happen.

I believe that over the next few years we will be fielding a top notch SEC team. For those who can't wait for it, turn off the TV & the radio, start watching something more soothing like figure skating, whatever you need to do- The Bitchin don't help.

So let me get this straight, in order to get recruits we need to have "one of the unexpected out of the box type of years and follow it up with another". But we haven't had one of those with the players we have so I am guessing we have to get better recruits, but we can't get better recruits because it's not Spurrier's job to recruit unless we have unexpected years. But we can't have unexpected years because we can't build on our talent that we already have by recruiting?
I think you have been watching to much figure skating....

[uscfan1]

you dirty little word twister you

[uscfan1]

is that you mark may?