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Old 02-20-2018, 01:50 PM   #141
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

My point stands, though, in that all the arguments about process all hinge on outcome. There's no way to objectively judge a process without the results. Therefore, every good process will thus have good outcome-based goals. And if you try to argue that someone had a meet all process based goals and did things the right way, and yet failed to produce, you'd get a lot of laughs and eye rolls.

Let's take Muschamp for example again. People keep saying he's doing thing the right way based on...W-L's. Nothing changes in process, presumably, and the next three seasons we're sub 500. Still a good process? Nothing's changed except the W's and I bet he'd be getting a lot of heat, though.

I stand by the statement that people touting process-based goals as a means to their success are just patting themselves on the back. They're looking for some sort of logical and meaningful reason they are successful. The fact is, people can all do exactly the same thing and one will be successful and the other 90 will not and it has nothing to do with the worth of that person, or how many process based goals they had, or even with their work ethic.

It's oversimplifying something that has no explanation. Why does person A succeed when persons B, C, and D don't? It can't be something as random as luck, or where they were born, or who they met in college. It has to be something inherent with person A, but 9 times out of 10, it's not. It's just dumb luck and timing and having the right idea at the right time around the right people. But if you accept that, suddenly your success isn't based on you...but that can't be true? Can it? My self worth is based on my success. My worth can't be dictated by something random and pointless? Can it?
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:46 PM   #142
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

As in all areas of life, it totally depends. For some things, the process is irrelevant as long as desired results are produced.
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:12 PM   #143
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Originally Posted by EAtMoRTaYtErz View Post
There isn't one person alive that doesn't have a weakness you can't nitpick. His biggest weakness while he was here was that he was the coach at South Carolina. You just don't seem to get how incredible it was that he was able to do what he did here. Nick Saban himself couldn't do any damn better. There is reason why a guy like Saban doesn't take this job but goes after gigs like LSU and Alabama. At Alabama you can consistently recruit at the highest level, not at South Carolina.
You don't seem to get if Spurrier had been more invested off the field that we could have turned that success into being at Clemson's level instead of a mid season exit followed by a rebuild. The reason we didn't become that is due to the fact we didn't have solid processes in place, they kept evolving with whoever was running recruiting and handling player development. Processes don't need to be static but the changes need to come from the top not the assistants. Spurrier was a great coach but he went with a results oriented approach and never thought recruiting was overly important because he'd be able to out scheme his opponent, that eventually caught up to us and caught up to us at the most inopportune time when we were on the doorstep of being able to cement ourselves as a perennial top team. Result oriented approach with no attention paid to the process will inevitably catch up with you, it's not sustainable. Period. That's why you have to go with process, it's the one way to sustain success not just get lucky for a few years.
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:20 AM   #144
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

I think if you go with a proven process you are going to have ups and downs but be basically successful. At least until someone comes along with a better (or more effective) process that makes yours obsolete.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:11 AM   #145
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Originally Posted by BringBackGarcia View Post
My point stands, though, in that all the arguments about process all hinge on outcome. There's no way to objectively judge a process without the results. Therefore, every good process will thus have good outcome-based goals. And if you try to argue that someone had a meet all process based goals and did things the right way, and yet failed to produce, you'd get a lot of laughs and eye rolls.

Let's take Muschamp for example again. People keep saying he's doing thing the right way based on...W-L's. Nothing changes in process, presumably, and the next three seasons we're sub 500. Still a good process? Nothing's changed except the W's and I bet he'd be getting a lot of heat, though.

I stand by the statement that people touting process-based goals as a means to their success are just patting themselves on the back. They're looking for some sort of logical and meaningful reason they are successful. The fact is, people can all do exactly the same thing and one will be successful and the other 90 will not and it has nothing to do with the worth of that person, or how many process based goals they had, or even with their work ethic.

It's oversimplifying something that has no explanation. Why does person A succeed when persons B, C, and D don't? It can't be something as random as luck, or where they were born, or who they met in college. It has to be something inherent with person A, but 9 times out of 10, it's not. It's just dumb luck and timing and having the right idea at the right time around the right people. But if you accept that, suddenly your success isn't based on you...but that can't be true? Can it? My self worth is based on my success. My worth can't be dictated by something random and pointless? Can it?


If one is results oriented, how long are they willing to stay with a course of action before they change course and start over?
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:27 PM   #146
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Originally Posted by CockNJersey View Post
As in all areas of life, it totally depends. For some things, the process is irrelevant as long as desired results are produced.
Sorta like UnCheats...The process of "cheating" doesn't matter as long as you win National Championships?

Sorta destroys the concept of fair competition, doesn't? Or does that matter anymore?
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:18 PM   #147
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Originally Posted by BringBackGarcia View Post
My point stands, though, in that all the arguments about process all hinge on outcome. There's no way to objectively judge a process without the results. Therefore, every good process will thus have good outcome-based goals. And if you try to argue that someone had a meet all process based goals and did things the right way, and yet failed to produce, you'd get a lot of laughs and eye rolls.

Let's take Muschamp for example again. People keep saying he's doing thing the right way based on...W-L's. Nothing changes in process, presumably, and the next three seasons we're sub 500. Still a good process? Nothing's changed except the W's and I bet he'd be getting a lot of heat, though.

I stand by the statement that people touting process-based goals as a means to their success are just patting themselves on the back. They're looking for some sort of logical and meaningful reason they are successful. The fact is, people can all do exactly the same thing and one will be successful and the other 90 will not and it has nothing to do with the worth of that person, or how many process based goals they had, or even with their work ethic.

It's oversimplifying something that has no explanation. Why does person A succeed when persons B, C, and D don't? It can't be something as random as luck, or where they were born, or who they met in college. It has to be something inherent with person A, but 9 times out of 10, it's not. It's just dumb luck and timing and having the right idea at the right time around the right people. But if you accept that, suddenly your success isn't based on you...but that can't be true? Can it? My self worth is based on my success. My worth can't be dictated by something random and pointless? Can it?
You might want to look into the difference between leading and lagging indicators. Here's one read: https://kpilibrary.com/topics/laggin...ing-indicators
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Old 02-28-2018, 02:04 PM   #148
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Default Re: Trust the Process




Trust the Process
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Old 02-28-2018, 02:50 PM   #149
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Originally Posted by GoldenSpur7 View Post
You might want to look into the difference between leading and lagging indicators. Here's one read: https://kpilibrary.com/topics/laggin...ing-indicators
First, what's more 2000 business vernacular? I swear if I were in finance and had to sit through a meeting where we discussed leading and lagging indicators, I'd lead myself to the nearest window.

But, I still feel like these examples are more clear than something like football. So the wins would be a lagging indicator? Easy to quantify but difficult to improve (especially, it would seem, at certain schools). The problem is, there are no clear leading indicators that would be clearly associated with success. I'm willing to bet every coach in division 1 football has a process or leading indicators that they believe will result in wins or the lagging indicator. But only so few meet with on field success and yet I'm willing to bet most of them will stand by their process or leading indicators.

Again, I feel like the vernacular is just another way to make something that seems elusive make more sense for people in the mix. Are you frustrated because you aren't gaining weight? Well, look how good you're doing with calories. Sucks to lose to UK year after year? Look at how much harder you're working in the offseason. The burst analysis on the sled is through the roof.

And frankly, outside the corporate world, still no one gives a flip about leading indicators. I don't care if a corporation is meeting all their marks on the day to day if my 401k sucks.


And "trust the process" is in the same neighborhood as "champions of life"
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Old 02-28-2018, 05:32 PM   #150
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Originally Posted by BringBackGarcia View Post
First, what's more 2000 business vernacular? I swear if I were in finance and had to sit through a meeting where we discussed leading and lagging indicators, I'd lead myself to the nearest window.

But, I still feel like these examples are more clear than something like football. So the wins would be a lagging indicator? Easy to quantify but difficult to improve (especially, it would seem, at certain schools). The problem is, there are no clear leading indicators that would be clearly associated with success. I'm willing to bet every coach in division 1 football has a process or leading indicators that they believe will result in wins or the lagging indicator. But only so few meet with on field success and yet I'm willing to bet most of them will stand by their process or leading indicators.

Again, I feel like the vernacular is just another way to make something that seems elusive make more sense for people in the mix. Are you frustrated because you aren't gaining weight? Well, look how good you're doing with calories. Sucks to lose to UK year after year? Look at how much harder you're working in the offseason. The burst analysis on the sled is through the roof.

And frankly, outside the corporate world, still no one gives a flip about leading indicators. I don't care if a corporation is meeting all their marks on the day to day if my 401k sucks.


And "trust the process" is in the same neighborhood as "champions of life"
Except that is essentially the mantra of Saban and Bellicheck. I'm not sure I'd put them in the category of Butch Jones, but that's just me.
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