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Old 12-14-2015, 09:44 PM   #41
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

you have to be outcome-based, in a sense. process-based thinking can help start you down the right path, but what happened to the old ball coach is a pretty good example of being process-based to a fault. he got his process down and it worked when he was getting the outcomes he wanted, but he was too married to the process and it came back to bite him when the defenses caught on to what he was doing, and when the recruiting landscape changed, and he got left behind. you have to be able to recognize that the process is garbage when you're not getting the results you want.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

Both. You can't develop processes without the wanted result in mind. You can't get the wanted results without establishing process goals.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:53 PM   #43
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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you have to be outcome-based, in a sense. process-based thinking can help start you down the right path, but what happened to the old ball coach is a pretty good example of being process-based to a fault. he got his process down and it worked when he was getting the outcomes he wanted, but he was too married to the process and it came back to bite him when the defenses caught on to what he was doing, and when the recruiting landscape changed, and he got left behind. you have to be able to recognize that the process is garbage when you're not getting the results you want.
See I thought that the Spurrier-era downfall was the outcome-based focus and the total neglect for the process
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:02 PM   #44
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

Is the question which is better? Because outcome is the answer.

I don't care what process Muschamp uses, give me a championship and I'll be happy. He could be number one or 100 in recruiting, have the players take extra days off, even not show up at practice but if we win the SEC no one will care. Everyone thought Spurrier's schtick was cool until we started losing, and then the complaining commenced.

In my opinion, the only people who should care about process-based goals are novices who don't really know what the hell they are doing or losers who are trying to justify why they still suck 3-5 years into a job. "I'm more focused on the process than achieving my goals. I work really hard 40 hours a week, is it my fault that I'm the least productive person here?"

As a matter of fact, I equate this with a generational difference. Ask my father what he thought about outcome versus process-based goals and as soon as he was done laughing at me, he would tell me to stop talking about it and accomplish something.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:03 PM   #45
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

The answer IMO is definitely process based. To piggyback on what House bringing up Wooden the greatest coach in men's college basketball history never mentioned winning to his players once. He only asked that they give their best effort. He was massively successful due to the process that he created and because he became successful due to his process it was sustainable. Spurrier was outcome based here and never really got a set process. The result was we had a run of massive success but it wasn't sustainable and culminated this season in 3-9. If you go goal oriented as opposed to process oriented you can be successful, I just think it is almost impossible to sustain that success which means if you want sustainable success the only way to go is process oriented.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:06 PM   #46
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

Nothing works without proper communication.



That is just as important as anything else as far our defense is concerned.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:08 PM   #47
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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The answer IMO is definitely process based. To piggyback on what House bringing up Wooden the greatest coach in men's college basketball history never mentioned winning to his players once. He only asked that they give their best effort. He was massively successful due to the process that he created and because he became successful due to his process it was sustainable. Spurrier was outcome based here and never really got a set process. The result was we had a run of massive success but it wasn't sustainable and culminated this season in 3-9. If you go goal oriented as opposed to process oriented you can be successful, I just think it is almost impossible to sustain that success which means if you want sustainable success the only way to go is process oriented.
By that thought, though, every coach who emulated Wooden's style, which I'm assuming is about 50% of all active coaches, would all be successful. No one would care if Wooden's teams achieved their 'process' goals without the wins.

This reminds me of the quote from Christmas Vacation:

Frances: Talk about pissing your money away. I hope you kids see what a silly waste of resources this was.
Audrey: He worked really hard, Grandma.
Art: So do washing machines.


You can have the coach who works really hard at the process and doesn't stress about results and I'll take the coach who strives to win every game, regardless of if he has to buck the preconceived notions of Wooden.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:13 PM   #48
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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By that thought, though, every coach who emulated Wooden's style, which I'm assuming is about 50% of all active coaches, would all be successful. No one would care if Wooden's teams achieved their 'process' goals without the wins.

This reminds me of the quote from Christmas Vacation:

Frances: Talk about pissing your money away. I hope you kids see what a silly waste of resources this was.
Audrey: He worked really hard, Grandma.
Art: So do washing machines.


You can have the coach who works really hard at the process and doesn't stress about results and I'll take the coach who strives to win every game, regardless of if he has to buck the preconceived notions of Wooden.

do you have examples of coaches totally focused on the outcome?

If you give Saban or Belichek as an example, I would argue that they would not continue to yell and coach and regardless of the score.

Do you think Gregg Popovich is totally outcome-focused in his pursuit of winning?
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:19 PM   #49
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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do you have examples of coaches totally focused on the outcome?

If you give Saban or Belichek as an example, I would argue that they would not continue to yell and coach and regardless of the score.

Do you think Gregg Popovich is totally outcome-focused in his pursuit of winning?
I think every 'successful' coach you would name would be focused on the outcome, for two main reasons.

First, no one would care if the outcomes weren't there. I couldn't name a coach who was process focused and went 3-9 because no one would ever talk about them. Maybe Elliott is a good example of process without outcome--no one would argue he didn't get more out of the players than expected, that he fielded a competitive team every week when things could have turned south, and I'm not present at the practices but the players seem to love him. However, lose a game to the Citadel and you're lucky to be the O line coach.

Second, it's easy retrospectively for a coach to say the focus is the process, but the process itself wouldn't exist if the wins weren't there. If Saban went 6-6 at Bama next season, he'd be lucky to have a job. Do that two seasons in a row doing the exact same 'process' and Saban's lost his touch and the game has past him by.


Thought of one more thing--take this beyond coaching. You can go to surgeon A who does every thing by the book, each step is perfect according the every standard, and he has a 70% success rate. Our to surgeon B, who may go off the reservation every once and a while, seems a bit of different bird, but has a 90% success. When it matters, who really cares how surgeon B gets his results when it matters.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:19 PM   #50
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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How are you going to make that happen?
Simple.

Mark it down.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:24 PM   #51
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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By that thought, though, every coach who emulated Wooden's style, which I'm assuming is about 50% of all active coaches, would all be successful. No one would care if Wooden's teams achieved their 'process' goals without the wins.

This reminds me of the quote from Christmas Vacation:

Frances: Talk about pissing your money away. I hope you kids see what a silly waste of resources this was.
Audrey: He worked really hard, Grandma.
Art: So do washing machines.


You can have the coach who works really hard at the process and doesn't stress about results and I'll take the coach who strives to win every game, regardless of if he has to buck the preconceived notions of Wooden.
I think the best answer I have to that is an analogy. If you go to the technical college down the street it may offer you the same course that you would be able to take at Harvard. The difference is the guy teaching at the technical college just read the book once or twice and the guy at Harvard wrote it and therefore has a much deeper understanding of the ins and outs. Just because guys tried to copy the process didn't mean they understood it as well as Wooden and the success was obviously not nearly the same. Also different processes work for different people so it's a matter of figuring out which process suits you best.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:25 PM   #52
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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I think every 'successful' coach you would name would be focused on the outcome, for two main reasons.

First, no one would care if the outcomes weren't there. I couldn't name a coach who was process focused and went 3-9 because no one would ever talk about them. Maybe Elliott is a good example of process without outcome--no one would argue he didn't get more out of the players than expected, that he fielded a competitive team every week when things could have turned south, and I'm not present at the practices but the players seem to love him. However, lose a game to the Citadel and you're lucky to be the O line coach.

Second, it's easy retrospectively for a coach to say the focus is the process, but the process itself wouldn't exist if the wins weren't there. If Saban went 6-6 at Bama next season, he'd be lucky to have a job. Do that two seasons in a row doing the exact same 'process' and Saban's lost his touch and the game has past him by.
interesting...but we have seen coaches who've stuck by their processes early for it to pay off in later years.

Those coaches who are all but run off by their fanbases for having losing seasons in their early years or for even "plateauing" for a time at a certain level of success.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:33 PM   #53
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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We all have things that we want to achieve in our lives -- getting into the better shape, building a successful business, raising a wonderful family, writing a best-selling book, winning a championship, and so on.

And for most of us, the path to those things starts by setting a specific and actionable goal. At least, this is how I approached my life until recently. I would set goals for classes I took, for weights that I wanted to lift in the gym, and for clients I wanted in my business.

What I'm starting to realize, however, is that when it comes to actually getting things done and making progress in the areas that are important to you, there is a much better way to do things.

It all comes down to the difference between goals and systems.
Let me explain.
The Difference Between Goals and Systems

What's the difference between goals and systems?
  • If you're a coach, your goal is to win a championship. Your system is what your team does at practice each day.
  • If you're a writer, your goal is to write a book. Your system is the writing schedule that you follow each week.
  • If you're a runner, your goal is to run a marathon. Your system is your training schedule for the month.
  • If you're an entrepreneur, your goal is to build a million dollar business. Your system is your sales and marketing process.
Now for the really interesting question:
If you completely ignored your goals and focused only on your system, would you still get results?
http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/230333
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Old 12-14-2015, 11:38 PM   #54
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

Process based goals are entirely dependent on whose prices. Right? If we are talking about following a known failure (not talking about hbcwm) then why would you trust the process of course you would want outcome based goals, if you are talking about a known success (again not talking about hbcwm) of course you want process based goals. I'd say as much as I love usc, hbcwm is neither a sure thing winner or loser, so you're probably best going with a mix
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Old 12-14-2015, 11:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

GH, i think coach Spurrier would be doing well with us based on the process he had at florida, "win games, recruits will want to be a part of that, have an assistant give an LOI to anyone who asks", if it was still the 90s and he was still at Florida. he built the habit using process-based thinking, but still with an eye on the outcome, but then just stuck to those habits while the world of college football changed. granted, i don't think there's any precedent for a coach sustaining that kind of success over that long a career, with saban and richt likely the closest contenders, but you can see saban as more of an outcome-based guy. while he understands that the right process leads to the kind of success he wants, he understands that the process needs to change in the face of different circumstances in order to maintain those outcomes
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Old 12-14-2015, 11:52 PM   #56
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

Outcome based:


Process based:
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:24 AM   #57
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

look how far we've fallen......very sad
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:06 AM   #58
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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but what if you don't know how to win a championship?

Do you just hope to luck upon one?
What about it? It doesn't change the fact that you want to accomplish it or you don't? What is the point of learning how to win a championship and going through that process if you aren't really concerned with actually winning it? Why not just go through the stay mediocre forever process if championships aren't better? You want to learn how to win a championship? If that is something someone can actually learn how to do, than doing that is a preliminary goal which only has a purpose to achieve the higher goal of winning a championship. So perhaps you FOCUS on these lower process goals, but only because you believe it increases your chances of obtaining the higher goal. Because otherwise there is no point to the process. Process exist to obtain a certain outcome. Outcomes happen with or without process.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:15 AM   #59
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Both. You can't develop processes without the wanted result in mind. You can't get the wanted results without establishing process goals.
Actually, you can, it depends what results you are talking about.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:31 AM   #60
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Default Re: Outcome-Based Goals vs Process-Based Goals

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Originally Posted by Emery View Post
I think every 'successful' coach you would name would be focused on the outcome, for two main reasons.

First, no one would care if the outcomes weren't there. I couldn't name a coach who was process focused and went 3-9 because no one would ever talk about them. Maybe Elliott is a good example of process without outcome--no one would argue he didn't get more out of the players than expected, that he fielded a competitive team every week when things could have turned south, and I'm not present at the practices but the players seem to love him. However, lose a game to the Citadel and you're lucky to be the O line coach.

Second, it's easy retrospectively for a coach to say the focus is the process, but the process itself wouldn't exist if the wins weren't there. If Saban went 6-6 at Bama next season, he'd be lucky to have a job. Do that two seasons in a row doing the exact same 'process' and Saban's lost his touch and the game has past him by.


Thought of one more thing--take this beyond coaching. You can go to surgeon A who does every thing by the book, each step is perfect according the every standard, and he has a 70% success rate. Our to surgeon B, who may go off the reservation every once and a while, seems a bit of different bird, but has a 90% success. When it matters, who really cares how surgeon B gets his results when it matters.
That's right right because there are other variables that no process can account for. Stuff just happens sometimes and you need more than a process to be successful. In sports you need talent. You need the ball to bounce your way. You need to hope the recruits will want to play for you after your best recruiting effort eventhough your schools and team is not really what the players you really want are looking for. You have to hope that when the players go through the perfect process they actually become the kind of football players you had in mind. You can preach all day about this and the other all day long and be great in practice but the team has to actually do it. Learning to be clutch and winning games, is not same as actually being clutch and winning games. The vast majority of our success in WBB the last few years has very little to do with any process Coach Staley is putting the players through. That success is due mostly to fact that we hired a famous coach that knows how to recruit and that players are drawn too, and we had lot of good players in our area all once and Dawn was able to seal the deal. We basically pulled the slot machine lever and hit jackpot. Luck and randomness plays so much a part in life that too much credit goes to process and trying and discipline. There isn't some grand process behind every single success story.
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