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Old 05-22-2018, 12:02 PM   #121
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by xXSirSpurXx View Post
I think he'd transfer before changing positions. That was his whole reason for coming here rather than anywhere else. We wanted and still want him at QB. Passing is his major weakness and he has to improve, but there is still ample time for him to split snaps with Bentley should he start to improve from that aspect and even after Hilinski gets here. Nothing is guaranteed.
Yes, its impossible to say how its going to shake out. Joyner has his work cut out for him though. Unless he makes unbelievable strides this season, Hillinski will come in as a more advanced passer than him. Hes better now and you assume he will get better with another year against top-flight HS competition.

One thing I know, it will NOT work out this way:

Bentley: 2018, 2019
Joyner: 2020, 2021
Hillinski: 2022

Joyner is a project qb. Lots of raw talent. Hillinski stands to step on campus game-ready as far as passing ability is concerned. No idea how itll pan out, but Joyner does seem to be the odd man out.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:03 PM   #122
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by xXSirSpurXx View Post
I think he'd transfer before changing positions. That was his whole reason for coming here rather than anywhere else. We wanted and still want him at QB. Passing is his major weakness and he has to improve, but there is still ample time for him to split snaps with Bentley should he start to improve from that aspect and even after Hilinski gets here. Nothing is guaranteed.
First, the statement that a QB just needs to work on his passing skills always makes me smile. It's like saying a WR needs to work on catching the ball or a RB needs to work on his running.

Second, for him to transfer somewhere to be a QB, there needs to be a place that would want him for a QB. Correct me if I'm wrong, but like you said, he decided to come here for that chance. Will there be another school that will give him that same chance if he fails here at it?

I say all this, but I hope he improves and I think it's stupid to talk about this given the few minutes we saw.


However, something I've been thinking about since the Clemson transfer thread. How many quality QBs do you really need? The answer is as many as you can hold onto, but I used to think three. A starter, a serviceable backup to come in for emergencies who maybe never blossomed into the qb he could potentially be, and the young/future starter. Maybe you only need two? With QBs starting younger and younger, why have that middle guy on? Seems like maybe you can now recruit a high quality QB every 2-3 years and fill in the gaps with middle tier guys who don't have many bigtime offers. Just a thought.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:16 PM   #123
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by BringBackGarcia View Post
First, the statement that a QB just needs to work on his passing skills always makes me smile. It's like saying a WR needs to work on catching the ball or a RB needs to work on his running.

Second, for him to transfer somewhere to be a QB, there needs to be a place that would want him for a QB. Correct me if I'm wrong, but like you said, he decided to come here for that chance. Will there be another school that will give him that same chance if he fails here at it?

I say all this, but I hope he improves and I think it's stupid to talk about this given the few minutes we saw.


However, something I've been thinking about since the Clemson transfer thread. How many quality QBs do you really need? The answer is as many as you can hold onto, but I used to think three. A starter, a serviceable backup to come in for emergencies who maybe never blossomed into the qb he could potentially be, and the young/future starter. Maybe you only need two? With QBs starting younger and younger, why have that middle guy on? Seems like maybe you can now recruit a high quality QB every 2-3 years and fill in the gaps with middle tier guys who don't have many bigtime offers. Just a thought.

You mean like working with a JUGS machine or working on quickness/vision those things never happen
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:22 PM   #124
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by BringBackGarcia View Post
First, the statement that a QB just needs to work on his passing skills always makes me smile. It's like saying a WR needs to work on catching the ball or a RB needs to work on his running.

Second, for him to transfer somewhere to be a QB, there needs to be a place that would want him for a QB. Correct me if I'm wrong, but like you said, he decided to come here for that chance. Will there be another school that will give him that same chance if he fails here at it?

I say all this, but I hope he improves and I think it's stupid to talk about this given the few minutes we saw.


However, something I've been thinking about since the Clemson transfer thread. How many quality QBs do you really need? The answer is as many as you can hold onto, but I used to think three. A starter, a serviceable backup to come in for emergencies who maybe never blossomed into the qb he could potentially be, and the young/future starter. Maybe you only need two? With QBs starting younger and younger, why have that middle guy on? Seems like maybe you can now recruit a high quality QB every 2-3 years and fill in the gaps with middle tier guys who don't have many bigtime offers. Just a thought.
Add into that the fact that quality QBs are no longer content to ride the pine for 2 or 3 (or 4) years to wait for their shot. Just look, Tagovoiloa suggested he was looking at transferring from Bama after 1 season (he’s tried to walk that back a bit) And, if your starter gets passed up by the backup, then he’ll likely be looking to transfer as well.

All of this makes it VERY hard to keep multiple quality QBs on the roster, unless there is about 3 years separating them. But you’re still stuck going after quality QBs most years because you have no idea who will be a bust.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:54 PM   #125
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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You mean like working with a JUGS machine or working on quickness/vision those things never happen
No, I mean like it's like saying a WR would be great if he could catch a football or a RB that would be great if he could run faster. I realize it's a different level and tweaking of techniques, or I guess learning basics of a position, is still happening. It's just a funny statement.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:41 PM   #126
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Honest question. Why does everyone point out that Hilinski is a more polished passer (pretty obvious) and no one makes the comment that Joyner is a much better runner? Or is the ability ro run and escape pressure not a good thing for QBs?

People on this board act like there never has been a running/DT QB that has found success in college. Or that the ability to run is a not a good atribute for a QB. As opposed to the actual reality, which is that DT QBs have become increasingly successful on the college level.

Joyner has to improve his passing, but his passing is not as bad as people want to think (look at his HS numbers) and he has great running ability. Give him a chance.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:54 PM   #127
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Honest question. Why does everyone point out that Hilinski is a more polished passer (pretty obvious) and no one makes the comment that Joyner is a much better runner?.
I bet if they were both competing for the tailback spot or this was Georgia Tech, your argument would be valid.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:53 PM   #128
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Honest question. Why does everyone point out that Hilinski is a more polished passer (pretty obvious) and no one makes the comment that Joyner is a much better runner? Or is the ability ro run and escape pressure not a good thing for QBs?

People on this board act like there never has been a running/DT QB that has found success in college. Or that the ability to run is a not a good atribute for a QB. As opposed to the actual reality, which is that DT QBs have become increasingly successful on the college level.

Joyner has to improve his passing, but his passing is not as bad as people want to think (look at his HS numbers) and he has great running ability. Give him a chance.
People have pointed out he is a great runner. I think tho the fan base really wants to have a top knotch accurate passer. They want an elite passer.
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Old 05-25-2018, 02:30 PM   #129
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Honest question. Why does everyone point out that Hilinski is a more polished passer (pretty obvious) and no one makes the comment that Joyner is a much better runner?.
I want a quarterback that is smart and can make the throws. It's a plus if he can run, but that's honestly just not very important to me.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:09 PM   #130
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Honest question. Why does everyone point out that Hilinski is a more polished passer (pretty obvious) and no one makes the comment that Joyner is a much better runner? Or is the ability ro run and escape pressure not a good thing for QBs?

People on this board act like there never has been a running/DT QB that has found success in college. Or that the ability to run is a not a good atribute for a QB. As opposed to the actual reality, which is that DT QBs have become increasingly successful on the college level.

Joyner has to improve his passing, but his passing is not as bad as people want to think (look at his HS numbers) and he has great running ability. Give him a chance.
In theory you have a point. But the problem is that on message boards and groups of people talking about football, everyone is always excited to see the QB that can run. The dual-threat QB always gets a ton of hype from the fans. It's the new toy that everyone wants to play with, and people seem to overvalue the dual-threat guy time and time again.

This has happened a few times on cockytalk in recent years, and there have also been numerous suggestions for different guys in some kind of wildcat role. Thus, it seems to me as if people on cockytalk are a little reluctant to talk about the EXTRA DIMENSION(!!!1!) that Joyner brings to the table.

He can run the ball, sure, we all see that, but lets wait and see how he does throwing from the pocket. -- That seems to be the mindset right now. There will always be people arguing that Stephon Gilmore should switch to QB full time, but that is the more basic, primal instinct of a lesser fan.

What gets me is that so many people are down on Joyner as a passer. He looked fine passing in high-school; he had a point-guard mindset of distributing the ball; and he is the type of guy to hang in the pocket after evading a sack. But he throws the ball 8 times to a bunch of walk-on quarterbacks in the spring game and now we get all this shit about him moving positions.
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:18 PM   #131
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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I want a quarterback that is smart and can make the throws. It's a plus if he can run, but that's honestly just not very important to me.
I agree. I mean, it kind of goes without saying that the #1 most important ability of a QB is passing skill. He obciously needs to have pocket awareness and be mobile enough to avoid pressure, but it starts with passing.

Itís somewhat of a sliding scale when you are talking about passing and running ability. You may be the most accurate passer around, but if youíre a statue in the pocket, that wonít work. Likewise, you may be an absolutely dynamic runner, but if you canít hit the broadside of a barn, that wont work.

Time will tell for both QBs, but the first attribute you always look at for a QB is passing and Hillinski is ahead at the moment. Maybe heíll step on campus and start throwing the ball into the turf like BMac. Never know.
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Old 05-29-2018, 01:52 PM   #132
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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I agree. I mean, it kind of goes without saying that the #1 most important ability of a QB is passing skill. He obciously needs to have pocket awareness and be mobile enough to avoid pressure, but it starts with passing.

Itís somewhat of a sliding scale when you are talking about passing and running ability. You may be the most accurate passer around, but if youíre a statue in the pocket, that wonít work. Likewise, you may be an absolutely dynamic runner, but if you canít hit the broadside of a barn, that wont work.

Time will tell for both QBs, but the first attribute you always look at for a QB is passing and Hillinski is ahead at the moment. Maybe heíll step on campus and start throwing the ball into the turf like BMac. Never know.
Plenty of successful college qbs started their careers being significantly better runners than passers. Manziel and Jackson come to mind immediately. Jackson had 55% completion and 12/8 td/int ratio his freshman year. That's not good at all. He developed into a better than most passer in those 2 off-seasons between his fresh-sophmore-junior seasons.

My point is, for anyone to judge his ceiling as a qb right now is impossible. It's totally up to him and his drive to be the best, along with a coaching staff that believe in him. We will see.
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:27 AM   #133
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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I donít think thereís any negativity. Heís incredibly athletic, but everyone agreea he has a lot of work to do on his passing game. Considering that we have an established QB and a QB commit for 2019 who will probably come in as a better passer than Joyner, he has a limited window to prove his worth at QB. That said, if!you go back to Luginbillís comparison to Percy Harvin, Iíd take that in a heartbeat. Now, maybe heíll grow by leaps and bounds this season. Itís certainly possible. If heís not starter material by next season though, Iíd switch positions if I were him. Iíd much rather be on the field impacting the game with my athleticism than riding the bench waiting to get better at QB.

Edit: I couldnít disagree more about Shaw. He was a fantastic QB. Memories get watered down with time. 2013 he had a 63% completion percentage, 24 tds and 1 int. Yes, he was also a great leader and excellent game manager, but itís flat crazy to say he rarely won us games.

Exhibit A, sir.








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Old 05-30-2018, 09:06 PM   #134
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

We have to wait til the taste test... after both QBs get face planted standing in a pocket that collapses. Can he stand tall in the pocket on the next play? Blake Mitchell and Shaw took some shots with each being a different kind of QB.
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:14 PM   #135
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Joyner should get his shot, but he best be ready to take it when he gets it. Really, that's all you can expect, quite a bit of luck involved.... no telling what happens sometimes and that is life.
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