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Old 05-03-2018, 01:56 PM   #41
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Too soon for this, but I think we should all appreciate that we're in a position to now let someone with the playmaking abilities of Joyner mature. The past few years, he'd been thrown out there ready or not.
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:25 PM   #42
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoverTwo View Post
Connor developed into a pretty good passer by his Jr./Sr. season. Don't forget all of the sub 100 yard passing games he had when he took over the starting job as a Sophomore. Those games were hard to watch even though we won a lot of them.
Connor took over the team as the starting QB in the Kentucky game of 2011, his soph.
season. He had two sub 100 games. One was against Tennessee ( 87 yards ) and the
other was against Florida ( 81 yards ). The other 5 games he threw for over 100 yards,
4 of them was for 200+ and one of them was a 311 yard game. for the season, he
was 123-188 (65.4%) and was 7-1 as a starter. QB rating of 148.3

His Junior season, he only played in 9 games due to the back injury. His only sub 100
yard game was against Vandy (first game of the season) but he only played about
half that game because that was the game he sustained the back injury. All the other
games that season he played in (8 more) he never had a sub 100 yard game. Of those
eight games he had 5 games of 200+ yards and two of those were 300+ yards.

He finished the season 154-288 (67.5%) and was 7-2 for the season ( 158.1 QB
Rating)

His Senior season he never had a game passing total for less than 147 yards. He had
6 games with 200+ yards and finished the season and career with a 300+ yard game
He had a 8-2 record as a starter, went 180-284 (63.4%) and a QB rating of 162.9

Shaw was only the starter for 2 and a half years. Subtract the games in 2012 he
missed with the back injury and basically he played about two full seasons worth of
games. Out of those starts, he only had 3 sub 100 yard games (one of which was
basically half a game).
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:35 PM   #43
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Since this has become a Shaw conversation, figured I'd jump in.

My take: Shaw was an exceptional QB. He had a game intelligence and wheels that hid many of the issues with our offense. Without him on the field, we'd have had a string of 9 win seasons instead of 11. It was refreshing to go into the weekend and know for the most part what you'd get.

That being said, his arm was good and his accuracy was solid (but I feel inflated because of the conservative nature of his throws). Would I say that was the weakest point of his game? Sure. However, I'd take that over an erratic decision maker or a gunslinger any day. I do distinctly remember screaming every weekend for Shaw just to throw the damned ball, though.
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:10 PM   #44
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

I over defend Shaw on the site now for the fact that while in the middle of his
career, which was amazing when you look at it compared to other former USC
QBs with better stats, he received below average reviews from a large part of our
fanbase. A majority of those wanted Dylan Thompson to take over the starting
job while Shaw was still compiling the best QB career record and stats in the
history of the program. It was obvious a lot of our fans were not really interested
in Wins/Losses, but more so on how well the QB looked throwing the football.
I've said a 1000 times or more since I've been a member of this board that I was
more impressed with a QB who could move the team, had a good record of getting
the offense in the Redzone and putting points on the board. I said over and over
I'd be happy with a team that ended up around 100 yards in the air and over 350
to four hundred yards on the ground if we won 9-10 games every season. A good
solid "field general" QB with average passing skills will win a lot of games.
I've made the comparison before as well, but it's worth repeating, that if you go
back and look at that 2011 season (Garcia, games 1-5...and Shaw games 6 and
beyond), we started at the point that Shaw took over getting to see guys on the
team we hadn't seen much of, or got little attention from in the passing game.
Ace Sanders, Bruce Ellington, Nick Jones, Buster Anderson, Justice Cunningham
etc... the passing attack became more than the Garcia to Jeffery show.
Shaw looked the field over, spread the ball around, and got the ball to the most
open receiver ( 40 yards downfield, or 4 yards downfield) He took what the
defense allowed him, and got the ball to the man who could produce the most
yards. That is what makes the difference in a Good QB and an Exceptional one.

As I said at the start, I over defend Shaw at times because not a lot of people
give enough credit to the guy who re-wrote the USC record book, because he
didn't throw the ball downfield for more than 30 yards several times a game.
He won football games throwing the ball to whoever was open and he got the
ball inside the redzone and put points on the board. He knew the difference in
when he could throw deep, and when to dump it off to the check down guy.
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:11 PM   #45
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by d20636 View Post
...Never (rarely) won games for us - just didn't lose them... E.O.D. maybe?

As for the 2013 Mizoo game? 20 of 29 passes for 201 yards and two touchdowns. He completed 14 of 18 for 168 yards and both touchdowns in the fourth quarter alone.
Yea...that's "except for that 4th down pass to Bruce"...not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cack View Post
You yourself are making your own point invalid. The Mizzu 4th quarter and OT (I mean lets give him full credit here) was possibly the best looking football I've ever seen from Garnet and Black. He also had a really great game against Clemson with the Alshon Tee-bag.

Wait - the "Never (rarely) won games for us - just didn't lose them" was taken from YOUR post - that's what YOU said. I'll admit it was a sarcastic and edited comment on your post, but dayum... You actually said "Connor Shaw wasn't the greatest passer in program history, but he was a masterful game manager. He rarely ever won us games, but he never cost us games."

Still can't wrap my head around that part...
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:29 PM   #46
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Getting back to Joyner
I think everyone has heard my opinion on him as a starting QB. I think the guy
has amazing skills as a runner, and has very good athletic ability. I don't think
he's sound enough on the skills as a good solid QB though. Maybe I'm wrong
and If I am, I'll be more than happy to admit it. I'd rather see him work on
some receiving skills as (IMO) that is where he has the most opportunity to
be an impact player for the offense. Bruce Ellington, Pharoh Cooper kind of
guy. Him being compared to Percy Harvin by the author of this article is
accurate and where I think he'll do the team the most good. If he pursues only
the QB position, he'll end up following guys like Tanner McEvoy, Lorenzo
Nunez, Brendon Nosovitch, Brandon McIlwain ....
He probably won't start working with he receivers this season, but if I were
him, and he chooses to stay in a Gamecock uniform, then he needs to start
working on those skills at the end of the upcoming season. By then, Hilinski
will be in camp and will eventually take over as the starter here when
Bentley is through. ..... That's my opinion and I'll stand by that.
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:35 PM   #47
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurticus View Post
Getting back to Joyner
I think everyone has heard my opinion on him as a starting QB. I think the guy
has amazing skills as a runner, and has very good athletic ability. I don't think
he's sound enough on the skills as a good solid QB though. Maybe I'm wrong
and If I am, I'll be more than happy to admit it. I'd rather see him work on
some receiving skills as (IMO) that is where he has the most opportunity to
be an impact player for the offense. Bruce Ellington, Pharoh Cooper kind of
guy. Him being compared to Percy Harvin by the author of this article is
accurate and where I think he'll do the team the most good. If he pursues only
the QB position, he'll end up following guys like Tanner McEvoy, Lorenzo
Nunez, Brendon Nosovitch, Brandon McIlwain ....
He probably won't start working with he receivers this season, but if I were
him, and he chooses to stay in a Gamecock uniform, then he needs to start
working on those skills at the end of the upcoming season. By then, Hilinski
will be in camp and will eventually take over as the starter here when
Bentley is through. ..... That's my opinion and I'll stand by that.
Playing Power 5 football for another school and eventually playing in the NFL?

I hope we're not stupid enough to let another one get through our finger tips
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:47 PM   #48
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

They were replaying the Spring game at the gym this morning. I didn't think Joyner looked awful--if anything he looked unsure and was pressing to do something amazing. Ulrich made similar runs but instead of spinning and forcing more yards, he took the hit and went down or out of bounds. If Joyner learns to not press and not get so rattled when he does make a mistake, perhaps the throws wouldn't be so off.

It just looked like he thought he was a superstar and needs to realize that high school athleticism is gone.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:00 PM   #49
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurticus View Post
I over defend Shaw on the site now for the fact that while in the middle of his
career, which was amazing when you look at it compared to other former USC
QBs with better stats, he received below average reviews from a large part of our
fanbase. A majority of those wanted Dylan Thompson to take over the starting
job while Shaw was still compiling the best QB career record and stats in the
history of the program. It was obvious a lot of our fans were not really interested
in Wins/Losses, but more so on how well the QB looked throwing the football.
I've said a 1000 times or more since I've been a member of this board that I was
more impressed with a QB who could move the team, had a good record of getting
the offense in the Redzone and putting points on the board. I said over and over
I'd be happy with a team that ended up around 100 yards in the air and over 350
to four hundred yards on the ground if we won 9-10 games every season. A good
solid "field general" QB with average passing skills will win a lot of games.
I've made the comparison before as well, but it's worth repeating, that if you go
back and look at that 2011 season (Garcia, games 1-5...and Shaw games 6 and
beyond), we started at the point that Shaw took over getting to see guys on the
team we hadn't seen much of, or got little attention from in the passing game.
Ace Sanders, Bruce Ellington, Nick Jones, Buster Anderson, Justice Cunningham
etc... the passing attack became more than the Garcia to Jeffery show.
Shaw looked the field over, spread the ball around, and got the ball to the most
open receiver ( 40 yards downfield, or 4 yards downfield) He took what the
defense allowed him, and got the ball to the man who could produce the most
yards. That is what makes the difference in a Good QB and an Exceptional one.

As I said at the start, I over defend Shaw at times because not a lot of people
give enough credit to the guy who re-wrote the USC record book, because he
didn't throw the ball downfield for more than 30 yards several times a game.
He won football games throwing the ball to whoever was open and he got the
ball inside the redzone and put points on the board. He knew the difference in
when he could throw deep, and when to dump it off to the check down guy.
I'm with you all the way here. Long passes are pretty and exciting, but the game is about making first downs. CS understood that. Dylan knew, but always had a few lapses. I love Bentley and he could better than CS, but won't until he figures out that first downs are where it's at.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:01 PM   #50
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by cack View Post
While this is 100% true ...



This is 100% untrue. When Shaw took over for Garcia everyone said "Finally we will stop under throwing the long ball" but that never happened. Did he complete some long passes? Absolutely. But I would be willing to bet that Bentley has already completed more passes of 25 yards (in the air) than Shaw did.





You yourself are making your own point invalid. The Mizzu 4th quarter and OT (I mean lets give him full credit here) was possibly the best looking football I've ever seen from Garnet and Black. He also had a really great game against Clemson with the Alshon Tee-bag.



"I disagree with you, so you're a stupid face head."



You're again proving my point. He did exactly that, and that's what made him so great for our team, BUT a lot of times those were dump offs because he wouldn't let it rip.



I can put together a highlight reel of Joyner's to prove that he should start in the NFL next season if you'd like. Of course Shaw made some great passes in

Again, nobody here is saying that Connor Shaw wasn't a really good and even great QB. Nobody here is saying that he had a rubber arm and couldn't make a throw to save his life. I do however remember a lot of grumblings on here when he was the QB because we'd see receivers wide open down field and you could physically watch Shaw look them off and not sling the ball. He had phenomenal stats and led this team to success that we've never seen before, but he did so being smart, not slinging the ball all over the yard.

All I'm saying is that Shaw's arm wasn't his greatest attribute as a QB, and if we could mold Joyner to mimic that style of play, then he could be extremely dangerous.
It is impossible for you to put a film together of Joyner being nfl ready with hs video. Put one together against big 5 college competition then you may have a point.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:37 PM   #51
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by ba55nec4r View Post
I'm not saying I disagree, but he wasn't a dominant passer of the football.
But he was the best passer we've ever had and threw the best deep balls.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:39 PM   #52
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Interesting nugget:

Bentley has thrown as many interceptions at this point as Shaw did his entire 4 year career.

I still think Connor's weakness was the long passing game, but you don't get a 24 TD to 1 INT year without being a straight baller.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:45 PM   #53
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by BringBackGarcia View Post
Interesting nugget:

Bentley has thrown as many interceptions at this point as Shaw did his entire 4 year career.

I still think Connor's weakness was the long passing game, but you don't get a 24 TD to 1 INT year without being a straight baller.
Yea....I saw that.

But Jake has the potential to be great for us. His passing stats are almost on par with Connor's, which means he's already ahead of some of our past QBs we have fond memories of.

I'm excited to see what Dan Werner can do with Jake.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:30 PM   #54
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

The most talented Cocks QB was Petty.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:55 PM   #55
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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The most talented Cocks QB was Petty.
Phil Petty was hampered by an awful USC offensive line--which is saying something to point out how bad those years were compared with the past 20 years. And I sense sarcasm, but couldn't help to look up stats since I feel like he was a good QB on a real bad team.

He finished with a 28:29 TD:INT ratio and two years threw more INTs than TDs.

http://gamecockarchives.com/plyrframe_2015.php

He was actually surprisingly good in the red zone for not tossing INTs.
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Old 05-03-2018, 06:00 PM   #56
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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The most talented Cocks QB was Petty.
While I love Phil Petty he was nowhere near our best QB. Todd Ellis was a gunslinger and threw too many picks. But as far as arm talent I would put him at the top of the list. Tannyhill was a gamer that could make things happen much like Petty. Connor Shaw was IMO the all around best to play the position here. Not the best arm and barely over 6' tall but he was a master of the read option, played very smart football, and could beat you with his legs when everything broke down.
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:21 PM   #57
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by Coondog View Post
While I love Phil Petty he was nowhere near our best QB. Todd Ellis was a gunslinger and threw too many picks. But as far as arm talent I would put him at the top of the list. Tannyhill was a gamer that could make things happen much like Petty. Connor Shaw was IMO the all around best to play the position here. Not the best arm and barely over 6' tall but he was a master of the read option, played very smart football, and could beat you with his legs when everything broke down.
We've had some good QB's in the last 40+ years, but I honestly think Bentley, Shaw and Garcia, not in that or any order, for that matter, are the best we've had in all those decades. Dylan was very good, but had very little supporting cast defensively.
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:57 PM   #58
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Joyner needs a chance. When you have Joyner's athletic talent, you don't have to be a polished passer in HS. In fact, his running ability hampered his development and prevented him from being a better passer.

Per Werner, Joyner is very bright and works really hard. Combine that with Werner's ability to develop QBs, and Joyner could be really good.

IMO, Joyner is as fast as Numez and a much, much more polished passer at this stage - compare their HS numbers. He is both faster and taller than McIlwain.

Luginbill is a hack and based his opinion on a very small sample size - for a player that should still be in HS. He may not ever be a big-time QB but we don't know that - and neither does Luginbill.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:33 PM   #59
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Joyner needs a chance. When you have Joyner's athletic talent, you don't have to be a polished passer in HS. In fact, his running ability hampered his development and prevented him from being a better passer.

Per Werner, Joyner is very bright and works really hard. Combine that with Werner's ability to develop QBs, and Joyner could be really good.

IMO, Joyner is as fast as Numez and a much, much more polished passer at this stage - compare their HS numbers. He is both faster and taller than McIlwain.

Luginbill is a hack and based his opinion on a very small sample size - for a player that should still be in HS. He may not ever be a big-time QB but we don't know that - and neither does Luginbill.
Joyner definitely needs a chance to prove himself. He has talent and a live arm. There is no need to write him off as a viable qb option until he gets a chance to refine his skill set a little more.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:41 PM   #60
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Default Re: Luginbill: Joyner could be special...but not at QB

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Originally Posted by Coondog View Post
While I love Phil Petty he was nowhere near our best QB. Todd Ellis was a gunslinger and threw too many picks. But as far as arm talent I would put him at the top of the list. Tannyhill was a gamer that could make things happen much like Petty. Connor Shaw was IMO the all around best to play the position here. Not the best arm and barely over 6' tall but he was a master of the read option, played very smart football, and could beat you with his legs when everything broke down.

I agree with just about everything you stated here except the part about Todd Ellis. He was in the Run & Shoot Offense and did not have the best supporting cast around him. Granted at receiver and running back (Harold Greene) they were pretty good, but we had a hard time inside the 20 yard line and could move it and down the field between the 20's on any defense in the country back then, but we could not control the line of scrimmage inside the 20's and that killed Todd Ellis as he had to throw a lot and most of the time into tight coverage as the offense was set up to throw it all over the field.
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