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Old 06-26-2017, 10:38 AM   #21
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

The best quarterback in school history was a three star. It helps to have 4 and 5 stars, but that doesn't equals success. On the flip side, a two star doesn't mean he will for sure suck in college. That's all this is.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:47 AM   #22
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Originally Posted by Emery View Post
Not trying to single you out, but this is coach speak. You'll never hear someone admitting the opposite, but you'll see it time and again in action.
I know, I just thought it was funny/ironic.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:58 AM   #23
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

I've always thought that if the evaluators were that good at what they did, then school's would pick them up as analysts/coaches.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:01 AM   #24
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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I've always thought that if the evaluators were that good at what they did, then school's would pick them up as analysts/coaches.

Evaluators are eunuchs at an orgy. They see a lot but don't know how to do a damn thing.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:05 AM   #25
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Evaluators are eunuchs at an orgy. They see a lot but don't know how to do a damn thing.
Exactly, in my mind they weigh offers and coach speak more than any actual scouting they do. Its still useful that they aggregate all the info but I definitely don't live and die by their rankings.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:28 AM   #26
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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People are making too much of this, and I'll never understand why people are either 'it's about the rankings' or 'rankings don't matter'.

The facts are, by the vast majority, really good football players get higher rankings and statistically have a higher chance of success. The stars, again for the most part, result from stats and camps and offer lists. So, yeah, it's a safe bet that if a recruit has offers from Bama and LSU and Florida and Ohio State they'll be ranked higher, and may get a 'bump' in the rankings, because those are really good programs that feel like the kid deserves a scholarship. But take away those stars, I would still love to win recruiting battles consistently with those teams instead of NC State or Western Carolina or Kentucky.

And if a coach recruits based on stars alone, it won't work out. Ask Miami. The reason Bama and FSU and Clemson now are so good is because they recruit the stars but also had a focus on the non-skill positions. It's also the reason that Freeze could cheat like a MF and still fail.

Finally, don't delude yourselves. Muschamp would trade our roster with Bama or Clemson or FSU in a second. Maybe there would be some kids who 'don't fit system', but sometimes, as in all areas of life, natural talent supersedes work ethic or attitude. I think Cam Newton was the biggest d-bag in the history of college athletics, and I would trade him for every single starting QB we've had a USC save one.

Excellent post!
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:39 AM   #27
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

This same thing over and over again. Muschamp could care less about rivals, 247, etc. But that doesn't mean just because they have a guy a 4 star or 5 star he isn't going to offer them.

He just states that they offer kids and rate kids based on their own evaluation and not some internet, computer nerd's assessment. He doesn't care how rivals, 247, etc. have them rated. He cares about getting the guys they want based on their evaluation which might agree with rivals, 247, etc. evaluation or might not.

I agree with him....
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:54 AM   #28
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Wasn't there a study of the current players in the NFL. The majority of them were 2 and 3 star players. That simply says there is NO WAY of determining a recruits success in college or NFL. Stars are essentially recruiting services evaluation. WM just seems to trust his own evaluations. I'm that way in my job too. If it's my job, I'm evaluating the people myself for what I'm trying to do
The fact of the matter is that there are a lot less 4 and 5 star players than there are 3 and 2 star players. NFL teams still have to fill out their rosters, so naturally they will have to find 3 and 2 star players to do so.

To me, all the stars do is provide a platform for players to be recognized by programs. You can find a couple 5-star players each year that just won't be a good fit for the program, even if they are highly rated. I'm sure Muschamp and company use the star system to find recruits, but they eventually do an independent analysis to figure out if that player would do well in our system.

The same is also true for a player that may only have 2 stars or even no stars. It could be a player that doesn't get a lot of attention based on the program they are in or the fact that they don't get their name out often. If Muschamp hears about a guy that could be a diamond in the rough, he and the staff will watch the tape or invite them to a camp. If an offer is extended, the ranking sites will take notice and do their own evaluation to see if that player is worthy of another star or whatever the case may be.

I don't think there is a single coach out there who says, "we need an LB and this guy has 5 stars so we will offer him." Instead, that coach may say, "we need an LB and this guy has 5 stars so let's take a look and see if he would be a good fit for our system." Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think even Alabama actively recruits every single 5-star player.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:04 PM   #29
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Originally Posted by CockyMBA View Post
Wasn't there a study of the current players in the NFL. The majority of them were 2 and 3 star players. That simply says there is NO WAY of determining a recruits success in college or NFL. Stars are essentially recruiting services evaluation. WM just seems to trust his own evaluations. I'm that way in my job too. If it's my job, I'm evaluating the people myself for what I'm trying to do
If you take percentages of recruits that make it to the NFL, kids that were 5 stars coming out of high school end up drafted at a higher rate than 4 stars and on down the line. Stars aren't perfect, but iirc if you get a 5* player it's statistically a coin flip whether or not they'll get drafted. If they get drafted they were probably pretty good in college. 3* get drafted at a 12% rate or something. 4* is somewhere in the middle. Maybe my percentages are off, but the idea is the same regardless.

The stars aren't perfect, but they're a reasonably good indicator.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:14 PM   #30
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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The best quarterback in school history was a three star. It helps to have 4 and 5 stars, but that doesn't equals success. On the flip side, a two star doesn't mean he will for sure suck in college. That's all this is.
Ummm, I'm not sure that's making the point you want to make. The best QB we've had in our history was a three star because the vast majority of our QBs are three stars. Maybe if we consistently recruited and developed 4-5 star QBs, Shaw wouldn't be remembered as the best that ever was.

And not trying to discount how good Shaw was, and a few bounces this isn't true, but as successful as he was--we've got a few rings the coach made to hand out and trophies from bowl games only fans remember.
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:20 PM   #31
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Originally Posted by Emery View Post
Ummm, I'm not sure that's making the point you want to make. The best QB we've had in our history was a three star because the vast majority of our QBs are three stars. Maybe if we consistently recruited and developed 4-5 star QBs, Shaw wouldn't be remembered as the best that ever was.

And not trying to discount how good Shaw was, and a few bounces this isn't true, but as successful as he was--we've got a few rings the coach made to hand out and trophies from bowl games only fans remember.
Not true. Since the scouting services started in 2002, we've started the following 4 star Qbs:

1. Newton
2. Mitchell
3. Smelley
4. Garcia
5. Mitch
6. Nunez
7. McIllwain
8. Bentley
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:41 PM   #32
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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we've got a few rings the coach made to hand out and trophies from bowl games only fans remember.
Ouch. The truth does hurt sometimes.
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

I think Newton, Nunez, and Smelley were all 3 stars.
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:01 PM   #34
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Originally Posted by Emery View Post
Ummm, I'm not sure that's making the point you want to make. The best QB we've had in our history was a three star because the vast majority of our QBs are three stars. Maybe if we consistently recruited and developed 4-5 star QBs, Shaw wouldn't be remembered as the best that ever was.

And not trying to discount how good Shaw was, and a few bounces this isn't true, but as successful as he was--we've got a few rings the coach made to hand out and trophies from bowl games only fans remember.
Thankfully we won't have this problem going forward. The past is the past and dwelling on it isn't worth it. At least that's how I view our previous seasons.
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:13 PM   #35
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

Let's pull this thread back up in about 3 years and lets see where the team is then.
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:50 PM   #36
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

It is interesting that our coaches do not care about the ratings, however, it does seem like the teams who consistently sign the highest rated players have the most success. So their must be some relationship between having a lot of highly rated players on your team and winning championships?
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:52 PM   #37
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emery View Post
People are making too much of this, and I'll never understand why people are either 'it's about the rankings' or 'rankings don't matter'.

The facts are, by the vast majority, really good football players get higher rankings and statistically have a higher chance of success. The stars, again for the most part, result from stats and camps and offer lists. So, yeah, it's a safe bet that if a recruit has offers from Bama and LSU and Florida and Ohio State they'll be ranked higher, and may get a 'bump' in the rankings, because those are really good programs that feel like the kid deserves a scholarship. But take away those stars, I would still love to win recruiting battles consistently with those teams instead of NC State or Western Carolina or Kentucky.

And if a coach recruits based on stars alone, it won't work out. Ask Miami. The reason Bama and FSU and Clemson now are so good is because they recruit the stars but also had a focus on the non-skill positions. It's also the reason that Freeze could cheat like a MF and still fail.

Finally, don't delude yourselves. Muschamp would trade our roster with Bama or Clemson or FSU in a second. Maybe there would be some kids who 'don't fit system', but sometimes, as in all areas of life, natural talent supersedes work ethic or attitude. I think Cam Newton was the biggest d-bag in the history of college athletics, and I would trade him for every single starting QB we've had a USC save one.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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It is interesting that our coaches do not care about the ratings, however, it does seem like the teams who consistently sign the highest rated players have the most success. So their must be some relationship between having a lot of highly rated players on your team and winning championships?
Yes. No one's disputing that. However you need to still be able to find those players who fit your system. Even Bama, bad example I know, has some 3 star players lying around. They're not 5 stars top to bottom like everyone would have you believe. Where do you think Champ learned how to properly evaluate and recruit talent? Saban was a huge influence on him during his time at LSU.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Let's pull this thread back up in about 3 years and lets see where the team is then.
Agreed. Let the man put his system completely into place before judging him.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: We Don't Use Star Ratings - Will Muschamp

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Originally Posted by cocky2007 View Post
Not true. Since the scouting services started in 2002, we've started the following 4 star Qbs:

1. Newton
2. Mitchell
3. Smelley
4. Garcia
5. Mitch
6. Nunez
7. McIllwain
8. Bentley
At least 4 of these should have been 2*
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