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Old 06-05-2017, 10:35 PM   #101
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
I don't think that GT has had a "stretch of dominance", they just use a running offense that does not pass effectively. If they were dominant, they would be at the top of the list of overall offense every year, but they are not - because they don't pass for many yards.

But that just reinforces what I am saying - the triple option is tough to defend, especially if you do not play it every year. Yeah, we had a bad game against The Citadel, but our Offense sucked even worse in that one, and we had a blown play where we let them go straight up the middle for a TD. It happens.
To the 1st paragraph, we'll just agree to disagree. Even with the past two seasons which were down years offensively for GT under Paul Johnson, GT still makes claim to the most years leading the ACC in scoring offense, the most years leading the ACC in total offense, and leading the ACC every single year in rushing offense in the 9 seasons that Paul Johnson has had his offense at GT.

I doubt very many people will argue that THAT doesn't meet the criteria of "dominating" over a stretch of years. If only one team can make those claims, and no one else can, how can it NOT be? Just because a team leads 90% of the time (or more times than any other team that can make a claim against them), because they didn't that other 10% they don't get to say they were the dominant team over a span of time? Never heard that argument before.

And arguing against the rushing yardage stats, because they don't throw the ball? I was responding to arguments that USC's defenses over the years struggle against the triple option offense. The area where they struggled the most involves giving up the rushing yards. The argument was that ALL teams struggle against it, because they don't see that style of offense - mostly rushing the ball, not passing it much - and someone made the above claim that ACC teams don't struggle against it because they play GT every year.

My post was to show that in fact even the ACC teams continue to struggle against it as represented by the conference-leading stats of GT's offense I referenced above - conference-leading stats that no other ACC team can claim in the same time duration.


Agree to disagree.....
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Old 06-05-2017, 11:53 PM   #102
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

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Originally Posted by pitchcock View Post
No one teaches DL to turn their backs to the line of scrimmage. No one. Despite the ridiculous urban myths guys like you try to propagate, our DL was actually taught proper technique. They chose not to use it, and/or they weren't physically gifted enough to exercise those techniques.

The Dixons, Dukes, Surratt, and Sutton had 2-4 years under Lawing, they all failed to produce with the exception of Sutton...and he was strictly a situational pass rusher who struggled his last year as a full time player on bad feet. Go back and read his NFL draft review...it's all there.

English improved his last year because the new staff saw he didn't have the hip turn required to be a good end rusher, so they scrapped his role as full time DE, ran him some at BUCK, and rushed him from different angles in desperation, trying to make plays. He didn't get drafted, he's a one dimensional guy who might possibly fit a role as a situational player at best.

Lawing is a good technical coach, the unfortunate thing for Deke is he walked into a situation with a lazy, yet freakishly talented Clowney, a pretty good Quarles, and absolutely nothing else. The cupboard was bare.

Brad has his fans, again, he's a good coach. But he has his faults that his fanboys ignore. Too many people that really don't understand how to watch football blamed Deke for our DL disappearing, when in truth it was poor recruiting going back a few years, along with Jrs disastrous stint as RC and Sr's outdated 1990's philosophy on how to run a program.
Lawing's last year at USC was 2012. In 2010 and again in 2012, Lawing's DL set and re-set the program record for QB sacks in a season.

The Dixons, Dukes, Surratt, and Sutton all came in during the years that USC had DL such as Ajiboye, Robertson, Matthews, Igram, Taylor, Geathers, Clowney, Quarles, etc. In most cases, those players were already established upperclassmen, if not all-conference potentials. They were all coached for much of their careers by Lawing.

Dixon Jr.: redshirted in 2011, was a RS-Frosh in 2012 and played in 12 of 13 games.

Dixon: injury-redshirted in 2011, missed portion of RS-Frosh season in 2012 to injury.

Dukes: redshirted in 2011, played in 5 gms as a RS-Frosh in 2012.

Surratt: redshirted in 2010, played in 3 games in 2011, played in 10 gms with 1 start in 2012.

Sutton: saw action in 4 gms as a true freshmen in 2009 before injuring hamstring which ended his season, played in 7 gms in 2010, played in all 26 games with 1 start in 2011 and 2012.

All 5 players eventually became regular starters before their careers were up. Hard to place blame on any coach that only gets one or two healthy seasons with players who were fated to start their careers as reserves due to great producing talent ahead of them on the depth charts. If the above players became immediate starters on the DL, then you would have the convenient argument that the players they uprooted - the Ingrams, Taylors, Robertsons, Quarles, Clowneys, etc. were not sufficiently developed by Lawing. Poor Brad just cannot get a break.....

And to the poster who stated above that Ellis Johnson's run defense made Heisman trophy winners on a weekly basis. Johnson came in and made our run defenses decent to above-decent. In Tye Nix's 3 years under Spurrier as DC, USC finshed last in the SEC in run defense, and next to last another year. Johnson's run defenses never finished worse than 7th in his 4 years as DC, and were in the top 4 twice.

USC has had the SEC's worst and next-to worst run defense again in the 5 years after Ellis left the program, however...
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:36 AM   #103
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

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Originally Posted by ConwayGamecock View Post
To the 1st paragraph, we'll just agree to disagree. Even with the past two seasons which were down years offensively for GT under Paul Johnson, GT still makes claim to the most years leading the ACC in scoring offense, the most years leading the ACC in total offense, and leading the ACC every single year in rushing offense in the 9 seasons that Paul Johnson has had his offense at GT.

I doubt very many people will argue that THAT doesn't meet the criteria of "dominating" over a stretch of years. If only one team can make those claims, and no one else can, how can it NOT be? Just because a team leads 90% of the time (or more times than any other team that can make a claim against them), because they didn't that other 10% they don't get to say they were the dominant team over a span of time? Never heard that argument before.

And arguing against the rushing yardage stats, because they don't throw the ball? I was responding to arguments that USC's defenses over the years struggle against the triple option offense. The area where they struggled the most involves giving up the rushing yards. The argument was that ALL teams struggle against it, because they don't see that style of offense - mostly rushing the ball, not passing it much - and someone made the above claim that ACC teams don't struggle against it because they play GT every year.

My post was to show that in fact even the ACC teams continue to struggle against it as represented by the conference-leading stats of GT's offense I referenced above - conference-leading stats that no other ACC team can claim in the same time duration.


Agree to disagree.....
Actually, GT is not only not the dominant offense in the league over the last nine years, they aren't even the best. Clemson has only led the league in scoring once in that time span, but they have been second four times and are actually higher in average scoring rank. Clemson has also led the league in total yardage four of the last six years. Kinda hard to be dominant when you aren't even the top offense...

And the fact that GT has fallen off the last two years proves the point that the league is catching on a little bit. GT always seems to do better outside of the ACC, which further proves the point - they can rack up scores against solid Defenses like Vandy because the offense is new to them. In the ACC, they don't do as well.
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Old 06-06-2017, 09:13 AM   #104
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

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Originally Posted by ConwayGamecock View Post
Run Defense (SEC / CFB):

2014: 13 / 107
2015: 14 / 110
2016: 9 / 90

Pass Defense:

2014: 10 / 53
2015: 9 / 50
2016: 6 / 39

Total Defense:

2014: 13 / 94
2015: 14 / 95
2016: 7 / 66

Scoring Defense:

2014: 12 / 91
2015: 14 / 70
2016: 8 / 51


Coach Muschamp is already improving the defense from the previous seasons. While there wasn't outstanding improvement, it was still substantial in most all areas. We went from having a defense that was rock-bottom in the SEC in 2015 in most categories, to having one that was in the middle of the conference rankings.

I think we could've had a much better season last season had we not had to rely on so many youthful newcomers on offense. Even in their case, they improved throughout the season to where they were scoring almost twice as many points in the 2nd half of the season than they scored in the 1st half, and gaining 70+ more YPG, which came almost exclusively from the run game thanks to Rico. If only the team played like they did in the 2nd half, in the 1st.

I'm expecting the team this coming season to start the season offensively playing more like they ended 2016 than they began it. This will then mean the offense WILL be on the field longer and more often, and it will give the defense a boost. It will be interesting to see how that translates in the win column: this season is expected to be a bit more competitive than last season was....
This is one of the better posts I have read about the last 3 years in general and our defense in particular. It illustrates how "unsound" our defense was in 2014 and 2015. Whether that was coaching or recruiting or both is irrelevant. We have coaches now that are teaching fundamentally sound football to many of the same players, getting better use of the skills of those players but also adding more talent on defense.

What soured me on last year was how we finished the season on defense. Both Clemson and S. Florida abused us. But in defense of the team and the staff, I would say that by then we probably had more than our share of hobbled players who had to play, and that offenses figured out how to exploit the weaknesses which Thompson, T.Rob and Champ could not hide.
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Old 06-06-2017, 09:22 AM   #105
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConwayGamecock View Post
Lawing's last year at USC was 2012. In 2010 and again in 2012, Lawing's DL set and re-set the program record for QB sacks in a season.

The Dixons, Dukes, Surratt, and Sutton all came in during the years that USC had DL such as Ajiboye, Robertson, Matthews, Igram, Taylor, Geathers, Clowney, Quarles, etc. In most cases, those players were already established upperclassmen, if not all-conference potentials. They were all coached for much of their careers by Lawing.

Dixon Jr.: redshirted in 2011, was a RS-Frosh in 2012 and played in 12 of 13 games.

Dixon: injury-redshirted in 2011, missed portion of RS-Frosh season in 2012 to injury.

Dukes: redshirted in 2011, played in 5 gms as a RS-Frosh in 2012.

Surratt: redshirted in 2010, played in 3 games in 2011, played in 10 gms with 1 start in 2012.

Sutton: saw action in 4 gms as a true freshmen in 2009 before injuring hamstring which ended his season, played in 7 gms in 2010, played in all 26 games with 1 start in 2011 and 2012.

All 5 players eventually became regular starters before their careers were up. Hard to place blame on any coach that only gets one or two healthy seasons with players who were fated to start their careers as reserves due to great producing talent ahead of them on the depth charts. If the above players became immediate starters on the DL, then you would have the convenient argument that the players they uprooted - the Ingrams, Taylors, Robertsons, Quarles, Clowneys, etc. were not sufficiently developed by Lawing. Poor Brad just cannot get a break.....

And to the poster who stated above that Ellis Johnson's run defense made Heisman trophy winners on a weekly basis. Johnson came in and made our run defenses decent to above-decent. In Tye Nix's 3 years under Spurrier as DC, USC finshed last in the SEC in run defense, and next to last another year. Johnson's run defenses never finished worse than 7th in his 4 years as DC, and were in the top 4 twice.

USC has had the SEC's worst and next-to worst run defense again in the 5 years after Ellis left the program, however...
I think some "fans" enjoy hating on former coaches and it's convenient to them to remember their own versions of "facts", even when stats prove otherwise. Every time they go back and beat the dead horse, they lose another layer of respect from those of us that see it for what it is.

We had a great run on DL for a few years and why we weren't able to keep it going is more complicated than just a few coaches.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:45 PM   #106
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

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Originally Posted by Wisercock View Post
This is one of the better posts I have read about the last 3 years in general and our defense in particular. It illustrates how "unsound" our defense was in 2014 and 2015. Whether that was coaching or recruiting or both is irrelevant. We have coaches now that are teaching fundamentally sound football to many of the same players, getting better use of the skills of those players but also adding more talent on defense.

What soured me on last year was how we finished the season on defense. Both Clemson and S. Florida abused us. But in defense of the team and the staff, I would say that by then we probably had more than our share of hobbled players who had to play, and that offenses figured out how to exploit the weaknesses which Thompson, T.Rob and Champ could not hide.
It shows how good Boom is at coaching D, and that our talent is not that bad. Not good either, but not that bad. I think we will actually be improved at LB and DB this year, possibly D Line also, but that is a lot iffier. Boom makes the defense better everywhere he goes.

Clemson and South Florida were two of the very best Offenses out there, which is why we looked bad. That, and I think we were worn down at the end of the season and we lacked quality depth. That should improve this year, and the Offense will stay on the field a little more and give the D some rest.
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:21 PM   #107
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
It shows how good Boom is at coaching D, and that our talent is not that bad. Not good either, but not that bad. I think we will actually be improved at LB and DB this year, possibly D Line also, but that is a lot iffier. Boom makes the defense better everywhere he goes.

Clemson and South Florida were two of the very best Offenses out there, which is why we looked bad. That, and I think we were worn down at the end of the season and we lacked quality depth. That should improve this year, and the Offense will stay on the field a little more and give the D some rest.
It's important to keep in mind that if we don't make stupid fumbles at the 2 yard line, we're 7-6, and the narrative is different. The Clemson game was what it was. Not much else to say.

Also, it took until the second to last game of the regular season for the defense to give up more than 28 points. And the one in which we did give up 28 (UGA), the last 7 points were from a fluke play. Defense wasn't great in 2016, but wasn't as bad as some think.

For this year, we'll by no means be a championship defense, but definitely one that is good enough to keep the other team off the field. I think they will also benefit from having a Gamecock offense that doesn't go 3 and out most of the game. Plus, Muschamp is a defensive minded guy. That will only help.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:52 PM   #108
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Default Re: Lindy's and Athlon's are out. Major disrespect for Gamecocks.

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Actually, GT is not only not the dominant offense in the league over the last nine years, they aren't even the best. Clemson has only led the league in scoring once in that time span, but they have been second four times and are actually higher in average scoring rank. Clemson has also led the league in total yardage four of the last six years. Kinda hard to be dominant when you aren't even the top offense...

And the fact that GT has fallen off the last two years proves the point that the league is catching on a little bit. GT always seems to do better outside of the ACC, which further proves the point - they can rack up scores against solid Defenses like Vandy because the offense is new to them. In the ACC, they don't do as well.
OK, that's fine: I provide a counter-point to the discussion of how USC's defenses have fared in recent years against triple-option offenses, which then transitioned into how the ACC's defenses have fared against GT's triple-option offense, and you move the field goal up to the third row of the end-zone seats by talking about how GT has done in the win-loss column, which as we all know, involves how well the offense AND defense of a team plays. Clemson, FSU, and lately even Louisville have had better performing total and scoring defenses than GT has, and that has played in their having better overall seasons.

GT's defenses at best are typically middle of the conference, and that's saying something because GT's defenses are usually on the field far less than other ACC teams' defenses: GT was regularly in the top 2-3 of the conference in time of possession, because their style of offense eats up the clock.

But you're right dude. GT's offenses aren't dominant because their defenses don't help them win the most games. They only do well outside of the ACC neverminding the fact that they won their division - in the ACC - shared or outright FIVE times in the first 7 seasons under Johnson. The ACC has obviously figured out Johnson's offense - they just needed 7 seasons of the same thing before getting it right? Okay.....

And finally, I don't think I have ever stated that GT's offense is an unbreakable offense that no one can ever figure out. What makes the triple-option so effective is that one) its not a common offense, and teams who play against it don't experience that type of offense often, and 2) it helps teams that struggle to recruit huge, massive OL in that smaller, more athletic OL is used for pulling on end-arounds, and utilize cut-blocking where they tackle at the legs instead of going body-to-body. Opponents ARE able to learn how to effectively defend against the offense as long as they have multiple experiences against it, or have lots of practice time to learn their assignments. Perhaps that's why Johnson's teams haven't done so well in bowl games, with opponents having a month to practice against them, and only them.

My point was to show that in the absence of that, GT has STILL dominated against ACC opponents over the years. Someone who is pedantic and contrarian to the point that they will argue that 2 years of a 9-year stretch cancels out the other 7 years isn't going to change my thinking on that.
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