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Old 09-28-2013, 08:54 PM   #1
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Default Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

Why does it have to be the focus of our offense?

I've always felt it to be somewhat gimmicky/bush league/juvenile and whenever Holtz did it with Pinkins and Jenkins...I *hated* it.

Spurrier brought it on with Garcia and now Connor and although it works better with his scheme than it did with Holtz, I still think it hurts you much more than it helps.

Yeah, you provide some confusion at times...but I think it affects the rest of Connor's game and why he feels the need to run more than he should...and obviously, they take a serious beating over the course of a game and season.

I don't see elite teams doing this. They have a gameplan that is more traditional and high powered...and features quick strikes with spreading the ball out, implementing a run game that comes AT you with off tackle, sweeps, inside gives, etc. I'd rather the QB take a look at 3 options and then ultimately take a sack rather than Connor's need to target his primary and then want to bolt immediately for who knows what (fumble, 1 yard gain, sack, injury, etc). We have playmakers at WR, TE and RB for a reason. Every now and then, as an element of surprise...you will see the zone read from the elite teams. Not the focus of their gameplan like ours.

Am I the only one who is long tired of it?

*It's especially frustrating when it is SO much the focus of our offense, we run it from the goal line and get stuffed (Vandy game).
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

Yes and no, on certain plays yes, but we've had back to back 11-2 seasons using it so it can't be all that bad. Personally I would like to see a shake up and maybe go I formation/ play action and see how it suits us. Now is the time to do it with the o-line that we have.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColaCock View Post
Why does it have to be the focus of our offense?

I've always felt it to be somewhat gimmicky/bush league/juvenile and whenever Holtz did it with Pinkins and Jenkins...I *hated* it.

Spurrier brought it on with Garcia and now Connor and although it works better with his scheme than it did with Holtz, I still think it hurts you much more than it helps.

Yeah, you provide some confusion at times...but I think it affects the rest of Connor's game and why he feels the need to run more than he should...and obviously, they take a serious beating over the course of a game and season.

Quote:
I don't see elite teams doing this. They have a gameplan that is more traditional and high powered.
..and features quick strikes with spreading the ball out, implementing a run game that comes AT you with off tackle, sweeps, inside gives, etc. I'd rather the QB take a look at 3 options and then ultimately take a sack rather than Connor's need to target his primary and then want to bolt immediately for who knows what (fumble, 1 yard gain, sack, injury, etc). We have playmakers at WR, TE and RB for a reason. Every now and then, as an element of surprise...you will see the zone read from the elite teams. Not the focus of their gameplan like ours.

Am I the only one who is long tired of it?

*It's especially frustrating when it is SO much the focus of our offense, we run it from the goal line and get stuffed (Vandy game).
Oregon runs the zone read as the base of their offense. Auburn won a national championship with a variation of it. The 49ers got to a Superbowl with it. The zone read is a good play, but if you do not execute properly or fumble then of course it is going to look bad.

After what happened in the first half today, it is easy to get mad about anything. The zone read is not a problem at all. We can run a number of different ways and I am sure we can find success no matter how we do it. Offense is def not the issue fyi.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

it shouldnt be our bread and butter anymore , I think the offense showed it can do well in the I.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

Auburn had a dominant player of our generation running that offense.

Oregon is an offense based on speed and could hardly be compared to ours.

I know offense isn't our main issue at present, I would just like to see it disappear from our scheme and become more of an every now and then thing. Yeah, we have gone 11-2...but that is difference in being elite, the zone read won't fool a fundamentally sound defense for a whole game.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Originally Posted by ColaCock View Post
I've always felt it to be somewhat gimmicky/bush league/juvenile
Is the Wishbone Triple Option gimmicky/bush league/juvenile?

What about the Flexbone Triple Option?

"The Zone Read" is option football just like the Wishbone Triple and Flexbone Triple, it's just ran out of the Shotgun instead of under center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColaCock View Post
Auburn had a dominant player of our generation running that offense.
So? You argued that elite teams don't run the Zone Read, and yet Auburn ran it in 2010. While Auburn's defense that season probably cannot be considered elite, Auburn was an elite *team* that year, especially on offense.

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Oregon is an offense based on speed and could hardly be compared to ours.
Oregon's offense is based on the Inside Zone Read and Outside Zone Read. They are a power running team. The average fan gets fooled into thinking they are a finesse, speed running team because they utilize 3 and 4 wide receiver sets and run the offense at a no huddle hurry up pace. They certainly do have a lot of speed, and that speed allows them to get all the 50 and 60 yard runs they are known for. But what ultimately determines whether or not a team is a power running team is the blocking schemes, and the team's ability, or lack thereof, to pound the ball down opponents' throats.

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Originally Posted by ColaCock View Post
I know offense isn't our main issue at present, I would just like to see it disappear from our scheme and become more of an every now and then thing. Yeah, we have gone 11-2...but that is difference in being elite, the zone read won't fool a fundamentally sound defense for a whole game.
You can't just run the zone read as a "side item" in the offense. It takes significant practice time to get good at it, and that's just the basic Inside Zone Read and Outside Zone Read out of 4 receiver sets. It gets even more complicated when you add an H back, tight end, or second running back to the blocking scheme, and thus requires even more practice time.

The Zone Read is not about fooling the defense, at least not the way Oregon runs it. It's about attacking wherever the read key does not attack. If the read key attacks the running back, the QB pulls and runs. If the read key sits, the QB hands off to the running back. It's basic option football.

Fooling the defense would be calling a running play several times, then coming back with a counter play based off of the original running play.

And even if the defense does start to shut down the Zone Read running play over the course of a game, there are several constraint plays off of it that you can run, like play action wide receiver screens, key screens, play action passes with a crossing route that attacks the void created by linebackers biting on the run fake, etc.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

32 WINS in the last 3 seasons. Record offensive numbers this year.

Nah, lets get rid of it.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Originally Posted by ColaCock View Post
I've always felt it to be somewhat gimmicky/bush league/juvenile and whenever Holtz did it with Pinkins and Jenkins...I *hated* it.
They didn't run the zone plays. That was a spread offense that used the QB in the wildcat. And we run several zone plays that do not have a QB option....the RB still has to read and react.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

I understand your point. I to would like a pro set. Under center. Offense. That runs the ball and uses the play action to set up the pass. Pretty much what we have when Thompson starts,
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Originally Posted by JAYBEZ View Post
32 WINS in the last 3 seasons. Record offensive numbers this year.

Nah, lets get rid of it.
That means very little to me when discussing this.

Just as much as Connor Shaw's record as starter matters to me. It doesn't account for the whole picture.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:11 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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32 WINS in the last 3 seasons. Record offensive numbers this year.

Nah, lets get rid of it.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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I understand your point. I to would like a pro set. Under center. Offense. That runs the ball and uses the play action to set up the pass. Pretty much what we have when Thompson starts,
Exactly. We see much less of it whenever he is in, and I think our offensive scheme is able to do what it wants to do...allow the QB to make a good read and decision and put the ball into the hands of the playmakers.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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That means very little to me when discussing this.

Just as much as Connor Shaw's record as starter matters to me. It doesn't account for the whole picture.
The final result doesn't matter to you? If you weren't aware; "we play to win the game"

You don't win games without an offense. This particular one has brought us to the most successful period in gamecock history.

But please go on. Tell us what you would have done differently? Use the pro-style spurrier started with that gave us 7 wins?
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

Why would you not want to utilize the weapon that is Connor Shaw? I get what you are saying, and I understand your feeling, but Connor is such a dynamic runner, and has proven and still is a dangerous weapon hurt or healthy. So why not use the zone read with him? If its not broke, don't fix it. But again, I get what you are saying, but I say keep it.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Old 09-28-2013, 10:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

Auburn did/does not run a real zone read option. They ran power football just it was Cam doing it. More a wing t offense than a zone read offense. Yes they ran some option but it was like 10% of their run game. Oregon does run zone read out of the spread but it is different than ours. I myself like old man football out of the I formation and think we will see more of it next year it also use the TE more.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Originally Posted by USCNowAndForever View Post
Is the Wishbone Triple Option gimmicky/bush league/juvenile?

What about the Flexbone Triple Option?

"The Zone Read" is option football just like the Wishbone Triple and Flexbone Triple, it's just ran out of the Shotgun instead of under center.



So? You argued that elite teams don't run the Zone Read, and yet Auburn ran it in 2010. While Auburn's defense that season probably cannot be considered elite, Auburn was an elite *team* that year, especially on offense.



Oregon's offense is based on the Inside Zone Read and Outside Zone Read. They are a power running team. The average fan gets fooled into thinking they are a finesse, speed running team because they utilize 3 and 4 wide receiver sets and run the offense at a no huddle hurry up pace. They certainly do have a lot of speed, and that speed allows them to get all the 50 and 60 yard runs they are known for. But what ultimately determines whether or not a team is a power running team is the blocking schemes, and the team's ability, or lack thereof, to pound the ball down opponents' throats.



You can't just run the zone read as a "side item" in the offense. It takes significant practice time to get good at it, and that's just the basic Inside Zone Read and Outside Zone Read out of 4 receiver sets. It gets even more complicated when you add an H back, tight end, or second running back to the blocking scheme, and thus requires even more practice time.

The Zone Read is not about fooling the defense, at least not the way Oregon runs it. It's about attacking wherever the read key does not attack. If the read key attacks the running back, the QB pulls and runs. If the read key sits, the QB hands off to the running back. It's basic option football.

Fooling the defense would be calling a running play several times, then coming back with a counter play based off of the original running play.

And even if the defense does start to shut down the Zone Read running play over the course of a game, there are several constraint plays off of it that you can run, like play action wide receiver screens, key screens, play action passes with a crossing route that attacks the void created by linebackers biting on the run fake, etc.
Before I address a couple of your points, I understand the point of the zone read option. I know a lot of people on here need explanations of our schemes, but I am pretty schooled in that from actual experience (I don't mean that to come across as a dick, FYI). I stay off of the CockPit to discuss detailed football talk in general.

To me, the flexbone triple option is gimmicky. It shouldn't be a focus of an offensive scheme. It should be reserved for high school teams that can't pass the ball well and have a lot of talented backs. You can be successful with it in college, but hardly ever dominant against talented defenses that know how to stay home and play position. Only team I can think of that has been ELITE with it is Georgia Southern.

Also, you CAN run the zone read as a side item. Alabama does it occasionally. It is nowhere near a focus of their offense but they will include it when the passing is rolling along and their tempo is high.

Again, I hope everyone on here understands option football and I know the zone read is simply that in a shotgun formation...and I don't mean it is just to "fool" the defense on each play or for your school scheme. I meant that it allows for misdirection all the time. Sounds like a perfect plan in a perfect world, but you *often* see the elite teams pound it right at you. With our offensive line, I feel like it should be more than possible.

As far as your last point- you mentioned a great SUPPOSED feature of the zone read that we never take advantage of. Mainly passing opportunities, but in particular...cross patterns. For whatever reason, they seem to already develop after the read has been determined and our QBs can't get onto them fast enough. It might have been hard to see on TV today, but there were quite a few opportunities across the middle that we didn't take opportunity of; this happens quite a bit.

In general, I think a zone read offense (with Shaw, in particular) isn't a good combination with a QB with little patience and a penchant to scramble.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Originally Posted by JAYBEZ View Post
The final result doesn't matter to you? If you weren't aware; "we play to win the game"

You don't win games without an offense. This particular one has brought us to the most successful period in gamecock history.

But please go on. Tell us what you would have done differently? Use the pro-style spurrier started with that gave us 7 wins?
Simply because today, someone like you is satisfied with "a win is a win" against an inferior opponent that we struggled with against...offensively and defensively, although we all know which one hurt us the most.

That might be good enough for you...but the same people who have that mindset are scratching their heads after we play a good opponent and lose- this season and over the past 3 seasons. They chalk it up to "well, they were just the better team today" or whatever other excuse we can figure out AFTER the fact that we failed in some sort of major facet of the game.

That is just a loser's mentality to me and I've never had that.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Why would you not want to utilize the weapon that is Connor Shaw? I get what you are saying, and I understand your feeling, but Connor is such a dynamic runner, and has proven and still is a dangerous weapon hurt or healthy. So why not use the zone read with him? If its not broke, don't fix it. But again, I get what you are saying, but I say keep it.
Because I don't personally think he is the weapon you think he is.

I'd much prefer trade in his legs for some patience in the pocket and checkdowns on his passing tree. I'll gladly exchange the sacks when necessary.

To me, his ability to escape on the occasional 3rd down isn't worth the sacks, fumbles, and LOS to 1 yard gains that we seem to see more often. People are more likely to remember the times he gets us out of a 3rd down than the other failures...especially if we win the game. When it bites you in a loss, then suddenly it becomes a problem.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is anyone else sick of the zone read?

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Originally Posted by ccured View Post
Auburn did/does not run a real zone read option. They ran power football just it was Cam doing it. More a wing t offense than a zone read offense. Yes they ran some option but it was like 10% of their run game. Oregon does run zone read out of the spread but it is different than ours. I myself like old man football out of the I formation and think we will see more of it next year it also use the TE more.
Again another great point.

Maybe it is just me, but just like like year with Justice included...we would target the TE for a portion of a game and it was beautiful. Then we wouldn't see it again for a few games; totally abandon it.

Today we hit Buster and (I swear) some people around me had said they forgot we had him on the team still. TE can be dangerous if you use them right and target them effectively; we decide to use them as another blocking body for the most part.
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