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Old 10-08-2013, 02:59 PM   #1
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Default Communication from the Training Staff

It seems like there have been a number of hiccups in the communication between the training staff and the coaching staff this year. First, there was the confusion about the extent of Connor's injury. Now, the big surprise re: Clowney's injury.

I understand that perfect prediction is impossible, and injuries heal at different rates, but it seems like you could provide the coaching staff with those probabilities, so they can effectively plan for various potential outcomes. It's hard to know how to split up the blame, but it seems like there are a handful of possibilities:

1. The players aren't provide the trainers with accurate info, so the trainers use bad data to make predictions. Solution: impress upon players the importance of being forthright about how their injuries are progressing.

2. The players are providing good info, but the trainers are not using that information well and come up with bad estimates for the coaches. Solution: improve the training/skills of our training staff or get people who are better at making doing this sort of analysis.

3. The trainers are correctly analyzing the possibilities but they are not communicating them to the coaches in an effective way. (ie., trainer says "he'll probably be out 3 weeks", while he means "It's really hard to say much today, but we will know much better by how it looks tomorrow. If you pressed me to give you a best guess today, I'd say 3 weeks, but I dont have a high level of confidence in that prediction and can't give you a better one today." Solution: Explicitly working to improve the way the trainers provide info to coaches and working with coaches on interpreting that information.

I want to add that this is not just about curious fans wanting accurate information. It really matters for gameplanning. If the coaches (erroneously) believe the player is 99% certain to play, while the real probability is more like 70%, they will not use practice time in the most effective way, and it could make a real difference on game day.
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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Originally Posted by ssladler View Post
It seems like there have been a number of hiccups in the communication between the training staff and the coaching staff this year. First, there was the confusion about the extent of Connor's injury. Now, the big surprise re: Clowney's injury.

I understand that perfect prediction is impossible, and injuries heal at different rates, but it seems like you could provide the coaching staff with those probabilities, so they can effectively plan for various potential outcomes. It's hard to know how to split up the blame, but it seems like there are a handful of possibilities:

1. The players aren't provide the trainers with accurate info, so the trainers use bad data to make predictions. Solution: impress upon players the importance of being forthright about how their injuries are progressing.

2. The players are providing good info, but the trainers are not using that information well and come up with bad estimates for the coaches. Solution: improve the training/skills of our training staff or get people who are better at making doing this sort of analysis.

3. The trainers are correctly analyzing the possibilities but they are not communicating them to the coaches in an effective way. (ie., trainer says "he'll probably be out 3 weeks", while he means "It's really hard to say much today, but we will know much better by how it looks tomorrow. If you pressed me to give you a best guess today, I'd say 3 weeks, but I dont have a high level of confidence in that prediction and can't give you a better one today." Solution: Explicitly working to improve the way the trainers provide info to coaches and working with coaches on interpreting that information.

I want to add that this is not just about curious fans wanting accurate information. It really matters for gameplanning. If the coaches (erroneously) believe the player is 99% certain to play, while the real probability is more like 70%, they will not use practice time in the most effective way, and it could make a real difference on game day.
1. injuries are not math problems.. there is no set timetable for certain injuries they are all relative to the extent of damage and athletes compliance with treatments and rehab

2. Just "impressing" on players improtance of reporting injuries, getting treatment on injuries, and being honest about injuries doesnt always work .. sometimes they just dont listen or care

3. Our coaches and athletic trainer communicate daily on the status of injuries and injured players

4. We have a great athletic training and sports medicine staff they know what they are talking about and doing

5. injury reports to the public are intentionally vague (HIPPA & FERPA)

6. i dont think there was a confusion of connors injury sometimes players come back the next day and do feel worlds better, people heal differently and you can bet the entire athletic training staff was glad they were wrong about connor
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssladler View Post
It seems like there have been a number of hiccups in the communication between the training staff and the coaching staff this year. First, there was the confusion about the extent of Connor's injury. Now, the big surprise re: Clowney's injury.

I understand that perfect prediction is impossible, and injuries heal at different rates, but it seems like you could provide the coaching staff with those probabilities, so they can effectively plan for various potential outcomes. It's hard to know how to split up the blame, but it seems like there are a handful of possibilities:

1. The players aren't provide the trainers with accurate info, so the trainers use bad data to make predictions. Solution: impress upon players the importance of being forthright about how their injuries are progressing.

2. The players are providing good info, but the trainers are not using that information well and come up with bad estimates for the coaches. Solution: improve the training/skills of our training staff or get people who are better at making doing this sort of analysis.

3. The trainers are correctly analyzing the possibilities but they are not communicating them to the coaches in an effective way. (ie., trainer says "he'll probably be out 3 weeks", while he means "It's really hard to say much today, but we will know much better by how it looks tomorrow. If you pressed me to give you a best guess today, I'd say 3 weeks, but I dont have a high level of confidence in that prediction and can't give you a better one today." Solution: Explicitly working to improve the way the trainers provide info to coaches and working with coaches on interpreting that information.

I want to add that this is not just about curious fans wanting accurate information. It really matters for gameplanning. If the coaches (erroneously) believe the player is 99% certain to play, while the real probability is more like 70%, they will not use practice time in the most effective way, and it could make a real difference on game day.
I'm sure a former Heisman winning head coach with as much experience as SOS has forgot more about athletic training and communicating with them then 99.9% of us will ever know....The Shaw injury has everything to do with being on the road and giving a diagnosis without an MRI, if they had been at home I'm sure they would have still given a vague and but more optimistic time frame for recovery due to available equipment.
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

So now it's the "training staff's" fault? Maybe they're calling the defense alignments as well?
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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Originally Posted by kick_ball View Post
1. injuries are not math problems.. there is no set timetable for certain injuries they are all relative to the extent of damage and athletes compliance with treatments and rehab
That's why I talked about probabilities and likelihoods and not set timetables.

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2. Just "impressing" on players improtance of reporting injuries, getting treatment on injuries, and being honest about injuries doesnt always work .. sometimes they just dont listen or care
Just because something doesn't always work doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I think some players think that covering up the extent of their injury is a way to sacrifice for the team. Convince them that doing that actually hurts the team, and they might change their ways. I have heard these exact words come out of Spurrier's mouth.

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3. Our coaches and athletic trainer communicate daily on the status of injuries and injured players
Super! Does this mean there is nothing more that can be done? Spurrier explicitly said there were big communication problems about injuries to key players in each of the last two weeks.

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4. We have a great athletic training and sports medicine staff they know what they are talking about and doing
Evidence? How does their training and performance compare to other SEC schools? I know how to rate players and coaches (at least imperfectly). How do we rate trainers/medical staff?

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5. injury reports to the public are intentionally vague (HIPPA & FERPA)
I can't find the info at USC, but usually college athletes sign HIPPA waivers that allow full media release of their health status. Here's one at Delta State. Regardless, my comments are not about the release of info to the public but rather within the team. See me last comment, exactly on this point.

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6. i dont think there was a confusion of connors injury sometimes players come back the next day and do feel worlds better, people heal differently and you can bet the entire athletic training staff was glad they were wrong about connor
Spurrier said “The trainer had him out two to three weeks. Yesterday, he threw a ball 60 yards,” Spurrier said. “So, I don’t know. You need to ask the trainer how he made such a miraculous recovery."

I took that as a joke at the trainer's expense. But maybe Spurrier thinks the trainer was right from the outset, and it really was a miracle.
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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Originally Posted by Flameout12 View Post
So now it's the "training staff's" fault? Maybe they're calling the defense alignments as well?
Maybe you should read what I wrote again. I'll quote the key part:

Quote:
It's hard to know how to split up the blame, but it seems like there are a handful of possibilities:
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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So now it's the "training staff's" fault? Maybe they're calling the defense alignments as well?
Fire the training staff!
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

this is aweful. communication between trainers and doctors is and needs to be kept between them and the coaches. The media and fans dont need to know about this level of detail. There is no way one can say the training staff is a problem when we dont know what goes on.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

first.. pet peeve of mine its ATHLETIC trainer http://www.nata.org/athletic-training

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Originally Posted by ssladler View Post
That's why I talked about probabilities and likelihoods and not set timetables.
Doctors or any medical professional can give there best educated quess to % or timetables and they can still be wrong sometimes



Quote:
Originally Posted by ssladler View Post
Super! Does this mean there is nothing more that can be done? Spurrier explicitly said there were big communication problems about injuries to key players in each of the last two weeks.
I still dont see how connors was a "problem"


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Originally Posted by ssladler View Post
vidence? How does their training and performance compare to other SEC schools? I know how to rate players and coaches (at least imperfectly). How do we rate trainers/medical staff?
experience & education .. i mean i doubt youll take my word for it but i know we do


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Originally Posted by ssladler View Post
Spurrier said “The trainer had him out two to three weeks. Yesterday, he threw a ball 60 yards,” Spurrier said. “So, I don’t know. You need to ask the trainer how he made such a miraculous recovery."

I took that as a joke at the trainer's expense. But maybe Spurrier thinks the trainer was right from the outset, and it really was a miracle.
again sideline or even in locker room evaluations are not a perfect science .. they may have had a better idea once they were in columbia and got a better look
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

Mark Richt has lost control of our training staff!
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:03 PM   #11
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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Fire the training staff!
Fire 'em all...!
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:06 AM   #12
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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Mark Richt has lost control of our training staff!
Contrary to what others will tell you, this never gets old. Points for being the 1st in the thread to use the Mark Richt has lost control line.

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Old 10-09-2013, 09:05 AM   #13
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

The issue isn't with the training staff. Everyone heals differently and has different pain tolerances. You can say this kind of injury normally takes this long to recover from or this kind of injury is day to day but it's really up to the individual. It's up to the player to make sure they are clear.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:58 AM   #14
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

All of this is kind of moot. The issue is that the head coach (and apparently his position coaches) didn't know that one of their star players didn't dress until minutes before kickoff. There is a pattern here (ie the whole communication breakdown where Clowney and Bruce etc didn't practice earlier this year). Something isn't working internally and it needs to be fixed, otherwise we have a national story like the one we have now that makes the school look bad. HIPPA laws don't really enter into it.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:34 AM   #15
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

I wonder about the communication between the training staff and the coaches. How many times have you seen a coach interview where the question is asked, "What about player X's injury?", to which the coach responds, "I don't know, you'll have to ask the trainers?" So many times the coach(es) seem clueless about player injury status. I know they have plenty else to be concerned about, but I've always thought that kinda odd; and after the Clowney situation, it just seems more odd to me.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:39 AM   #16
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
All of this is kind of moot. The issue is that the head coach (and apparently his position coaches) didn't know that one of their star players didn't dress until minutes before kickoff. There is a pattern here (ie the whole communication breakdown where Clowney and Bruce etc didn't practice earlier this year). Something isn't working internally and it needs to be fixed, otherwise we have a national story like the one we have now that makes the school look bad. HIPPA laws don't really enter into it.
I think the problem is that the coaches are having to tell the players things that they don't think they should have to. Honestly should they have to communicate to players that if you say your hurt you shouldn't be hanging out and playing in the locker room while the team is practicing or if you decide you can't play in a game that you need to tell your coaches?
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

Honestly, I think spurrier can only blame himself for this one. He got annoyed with all the questions about clowney's injury, but he didn't handle it well and stated his view inartfully. Since he's the greatest college football coach ever, I think we can overlook it, this time.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Communication from the Training Staff

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So now it's the "training staff's" fault? Maybe they're calling the defense alignments as well?
Agreed
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