CockyTalk

Welcome to Cockytalk!

Thank you for visiting our forum. As a guest, you have limited access to view some discussion and articles. By joining our free community, you will be able to view all discussions and articles, post your own topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos, participate in Pick'Em contests and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today!!

If you have any problems registering or logging in, please contact our Admins. Thanks!

Go Back   CockyTalk > Other Sports > The Locker Room

Today's Top 10
Posters (by posts)Threads (by views)Newest Posts Gamecock Headlines 
Acockolypse Now
Spurticus
WeStill0wnUSC
COCKYTALKIN
USCBASEBALL1
The Yancey
B-G
BiggerLSUfan
Rooster'srule
Spur's Addiction
Jay Paterno Attempts (829)
Gamecocks (-10.5) vs (800)
Hercules - review (383)
Gamecock Coaches as (371)
help with army insig (364)
Ranking the Opposing (345)
Not a Rival.. (243)
I'm a grand godfathe (210)
NCAA Football 15 (203)
COCKYTALK ONE HIT WO (171)
Ranking the Opposing Fanb
Jay Paterno Attempts To R
Not a Rival..
Ced Cooper's 40 Time
2015 - Mon Denson
Tenn vs WVU in Charlotte
2015 - Ty'Son Williams
Discussion: 2015 Recruiti
Gamecock Coaches as Recru
Green and Lammons


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-29-2013, 10:25 PM   #1
trapper82
1st Team All-SEC
 
trapper82's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 4,359
CockyCash: 500
trapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot material
Default Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Warning - Long
If you don't want to read, don't, no biggie.


This topic was bogging down a recruits thread, so instead of continuing there I thought we should make another thread for it. The issue is how Butch Jones' is recruiting a class of roughly 35 total kids when both the NCAA and the SEC now have rules with a 25 player cap. The answer was given before, so I will quote it here:

Quote:
The Rule
quote:
13.9.1 Letter of Intent – Limitation. Each SEC member institution is limited to signing 25 football prospective student-athletes to a National Letter of Intent, Conference financial aid agreement and/or institutional offer of athletics financial aid from December 1 through May 31st of each year. [Adopted 5/29/09; effective immediately; revised 6/3/11; effective August 1, 2011]

The possible Loop Hole

quote:
The dates are critical, because the SEC bylaw collides with a new NCAA rules interpretation that impacted this recruiting cycle. Academically eligible student-athletes who plan to enroll early (in January) are now allowed to sign aid agreements with universities as early as Aug. 1.

Tennessee had a flood of players sign aid agreements last month — perhaps a half-dozen players or more. Why is this significant? By the letter of the law, those players wouldn’t count against the SEC’s signing limit. They’re freebies, if you will.

Now, make no mistake: This loophole, if it’s real, doesn’t affect the scholarship limitations. But it would give Tennessee more flexibility than teams that haven’t yet discovered the loophole.

For example, let’s say five players sign aid agreements before Dec. 1, 2013, and enroll at UT in January.

UT can count back at least five scholarships against 2013 because that year’s class was under the 25-man limit. So that’s now 10 that wouldn’t count against the SEC signing limit

Jones has said he wants to welcome 14 mid-year enrollees in January. If the Vols were able take 10 of those players “off the books” for the purposes of the SEC signing rule, they could sign another 21 players to traditional Letters of Intent in February.

Grand total? 35.

Here is some more info:
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/college-r...ing-loopholes/

What about those two loopholes?
The first has to do with the financial-aid agreements. Under the SEC’s “over-signing” bylaw (which went into effect around two years ago), schools are limited to signing 25 prospective student-athletes (PSAs) to a National Letter of Intent and financial aid from Dec. 1 to May 31 each year. This year, a new NCAA interpretation allowed kids who have been approved to enroll early to sign financial-aid agreements beginning on Aug. 1. According to Woodberry, the first loophole could be kids who signed before Dec. 1. “They’re freebies, if you will.”
My argument was that the rule itself is sadly ambiguous because it uses "and/or" which legal documents are supposed to avoid if at all possible. I have highlighted that part below:

Quote:
13.9.1 Letter of Intent – Limitation. Each SEC member institution is limited to signing 25 football prospective student-athletes to a National Letter of Intent, Conference financial aid agreement and/or institutional offer of athletics financial aid from December 1 through May 31st of each year. [Adopted 5/29/09; effective immediately; revised 6/3/11; effective August 1, 2011]
A quick Google search of how to use and/or will tell you simply not to:

http://www.slaw.ca/2011/07/27/grammar-legal-writing/

Review that as you wish. To start with, let's take a look at the actual definition of and/or:

- either or both of two stated possibilities.

Let's give some examples of phrases that use "and" separately from "or."

1a. I am going to the store for milk and eggs.

Pretty simple really, you expect me to return with BOTH milk AND eggs.

2a. I am going to the store for milk or eggs.

Again, pretty simple. For whatever reason, you expect me to return with milk or eggs, but not both. Maybe the store doesn't have both, maybe I don't have enough money for both, but the or tells you I am only going to return with one.

3a. I am going to store for milk and/or eggs.

Now you aren't sure what to expect when I come home. I could have milk, I could have eggs, or I could have milk AND eggs. What I should say is "I am going to the store for milk or eggs, or both," since that is what I really mean.

Now, let's use those same examples with three choices:

1b. I am going to the store for milk, eggs, and coffee.

I should arrive with all three.

2b. I am going to the store for milk, eggs, or coffee.

I should arrive with one of those three choices.

3b. I am going to the store for milk, eggs and/or coffee.

In this statement, depending on the context, I may be saying that I will certainly be returning with milk and either eggs or coffee, but not both. Maybe I mean I am going to return with some combination of the three of those, possibly including all three. Or, maybe I actually meant to say I will only be returning with one, in which case I should have used 2b above. Since 2b would be the proper and clear way to say that, let's remove it from our choices. Which leaves us with:

1c. I will be certainly be returning with milk and possibly bring eggs or coffee, but not both.

2c. I will bring some combination of milk, eggs, and coffee, maybe even all three.
________________________________________

If you are still reading, this is where Tennessee can be in trouble. The only way you know for sure if I mean 1c or 2c is by asking me or looking at the context of my broader conversation. The term and/or is naturally ambiguous, which is why it is avoided. Let's break down the NCAA and SEC rule with this in mind:

Quote:
Each SEC member institution is limited to signing 25 football prospective student-athletes to a National Letter of Intent, Conference financial aid agreement and/or institutional offer of athletics financial aid from December 1 through May 31st of each year.
Playing the part of milk, eggs, and coffee, we have:

- A National Letter of Intent

- Conference financial aid agreement

- Institutional offer of athletics financial aid

Let's pause for a second and remind ourselves of the clear purpose of the rule: to stop over-signing by limiting the classes to 25 per year. Tennessee fans want to focus on the dates in the statement above, but those dates only modify one of the clauses. In these readings, you will see why the 25 total limit supersedes the dates given for the institutional aid. If you notice, the phrase "25 football prospective student-athletes" is modified by these three clauses, but it remains the same. The main point of the rule was to limit each school to 25 athletes per year. With that in mind, here are a few possible renderings of their rule if you want to parse that and/or:

1d. You can sign 25 total athletes to a NLOI and Conference aid or Institutional aid, but not both.

In this situation, the 25 total athletes can sign a NLOI or have some type of aid given to them, either through the conference or the institution. The total number of these athletes in this case must still be 25, whether they are counted for receiving aid or for signing a NLOI.

2d. You can sign 25 total athletes using some combination of NLOI, Conference aid and Institutional aid.

This again makes the number 25 paramount, and would not allow them to go over 25 in this class regardless of the method.

Either one of these renderings could be used to say that Tennessee has far too many recruits to fit into this guideline. What is also telling is how the other schools are currently behaving:

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...k/2014/all/all

Here are the schools with over 25 commitments:

Tennessee - 33
Miami - 29
Florida State - 26
Virginia Tech - 27
Arizona - 27
Baylor - 26

With the exception of Miami, all are hovering just around 25. Accounting for non-qualifiers and possible changes of commitment, you should probably say those with 26 or 27 are right where they should be. For instance, Florida State has Dexter Wideman, and who knows what he is going to do? If he flips to South Carolina which some are already predicting they are back at 25. The closest school to them is Miami at 29, and Miami is really known for following the rules and such. Even so, no one else is over 30. No one else is even AT 30. And Butch apparently doesn't want to stop at 33 as he has aimed for a class of 35. And do remember, the NCAA had as part of our punishment that we could only take 22 commits for a few years, down from the usual 25. In other words, they used the standard of 25 maximum signees per year as part of a punishment, so believe it or not I am pretty sure they are serious about this 25 max number.

Now either one of two things is happening. Either Butch Jones found a loophole no one else in the country found and is exploiting it to the hilt, making the NCAA and the SEC look like chumps in the process, or all these other programs know that what he is doing isn't going to fly and they are staying away from it. Does anyone believe that Urban Meyer, had he really not thought of this before, wouldn't do it now that it was known that for one year you can loophole the system and not suffer a penalty? What about Nick Saban? He could get an extra few 4 or 5 star recruits if he wanted to just like Butch Jones if all of this is legal, but he chooses not to? Basically any school with scholarship room could do this if its legal to do, and they don't seem to be doing it. Why? Maybe Butch and his staff did find it before anyone else, but no one else in the country is playing along?

Now if I were a Tennessee fan, I would be a little worried. Given that no one else is doing what you are doing, and the clear purpose of the rule is to limit each class to 25 signees, you are basically daring the NCAA and the SEC to do something about it. Maybe they will pass on punishment, they have certainly done so before. But you would be the first ones to challenge this relatively new rule, and do it so obviously as well. You are also the only ones, as best I can tell, who are going this route. Makes the punishment a little easier when its just one team. And they aren't even hurting someone that has really done well on the national stage lately, as that is the usual time they choose to look the other way. I would be worried, were I you.

Having written all of this, if there is some other rule is he actually using to exploit the system, then none of this really matters.
__________________
You can't spell EXCUSE without the "CU."

Last edited by trapper82; 12-30-2013 at 12:16 AM.
trapper82 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2013, 10:54 PM   #2
gamecockjay
Blue Chip
 
gamecockjay's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 940
CockyCash: 200
gamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPitgamecockjay rules the CockPit
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

I think they will get a pass but the loophole will be closed in short order after this signing period.
__________________
"The only people who use mustard base BBQ sauce are yankees and people who were not raised properly"
J.A. Weatherly
gamecockjay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2013, 11:43 PM   #3
SanAntonioCock
Bowl MVP
 
SanAntonioCock's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 2,163
CockyCash: 220685
SanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot materialSanAntonioCock is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

butch gets it
__________________

Never forget the "y" ...and so forth.
SanAntonioCock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 12:00 AM   #4
b381l
Heisman Winner
 
b381l's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 21,655
CockyCash: 52205
b381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

I think if this was truly a legitimate loophole, then everyone would be doing it, but they aren't. Each school has their own staff of attorneys and compliance people going over all the rules. There is a pretty good discussion about this in the Derrell Scott thread. I would have advised UT to contact the NCAA before going through with this to get their opinion in writing before proceeding. It just doesn't pass the smell test. Recruiting rules are almost always written very clearly to make sure they are not misunderstood.
b381l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 12:10 AM   #5
trapper82
1st Team All-SEC
 
trapper82's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 4,359
CockyCash: 500
trapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by b381l View Post
I think if this was truly a legitimate loophole, then everyone would be doing it, but they aren't. Each school has their own staff of attorneys and compliance people going over all the rules. There is a pretty good discussion about this in the Derrell Scott thread. I would have advised UT to contact the NCAA before going through with this to get their opinion in writing before proceeding. It just doesn't pass the smell test. Recruiting rules are almost always written very clearly to make sure they are not misunderstood.
Exactly. Even if you want to argue no one noticed it before Butch, they knew it before the Dec. 1st deadline since their class was past the limit before then.
__________________
You can't spell EXCUSE without the "CU."
trapper82 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 12:14 AM   #6
roosterdude21
Game MVP
 
roosterdude21's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Meh
Posts: 1,531
CockyCash: 317
roosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

I'm just surprised it hasn't generated much buzz yet. The penalties would be huge for this type of over-sign
roosterdude21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 12:43 AM   #7
b381l
Heisman Winner
 
b381l's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 21,655
CockyCash: 52205
b381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Since no other schools are doing it, it's really not newsworthy, yet. The NCAA is not required to step in and tell a school they are breaking the rules until after the period in which the rules were broken.

If this does turn out to be against the rules, will Butch Jones get fired. I hope for his sake, he at least got UT's compliance people to review this.
b381l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 12:53 AM   #8
trapper82
1st Team All-SEC
 
trapper82's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 4,359
CockyCash: 500
trapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by b381l View Post
Since no other schools are doing it, it's really not newsworthy, yet. The NCAA is not required to step in and tell a school they are breaking the rules until after the period in which the rules were broken.

If this does turn out to be against the rules, will Butch Jones get fired. I hope for his sake, he at least got UT's compliance people to review this.
Out of curiosity, what else would happen to TN in general? What are the penalties for breaking the rules?
__________________
You can't spell EXCUSE without the "CU."
trapper82 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 01:07 AM   #9
roosterdude21
Game MVP
 
roosterdude21's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Meh
Posts: 1,531
CockyCash: 317
roosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot materialroosterdude21 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Loss of 3 scholarships for each over-sign right?
roosterdude21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 01:13 AM   #10
carolinacoast
Household Name
 
carolinacoast's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 5,871
CockyCash: 500
carolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPitcarolinacoast rules the CockPit
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by trapper82 View Post
Out of curiosity, what else would happen to TN in general? What are the penalties for breaking the rules?
The SEC issued a statement a few weeks that they and the NCAA will look at any loopholes connected with any interpretation of the rules when UT acts on it. You can't penalize a school if they haven't broken a rule, yet. February isn't even here yet, not to mention next fall. What worried some some UT fans was that the NCAA and SEC might make any rule changes immediate as the statement didn't rule anything like that out. Obviously, other schools and/or fans complained to them about UT as the statement was to address the complaints. The question is the interpretation of current rules.
carolinacoast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 01:44 AM   #11
b381l
Heisman Winner
 
b381l's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 21,655
CockyCash: 52205
b381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot materialb381l is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by roosterdude21 View Post
Loss of 3 scholarships for each over-sign right?
If they were to get 35 recruits, that's 10 over, so they would lose all 25 recruits the following year and 5 the year after. I really don't know about the timing of the penalities.

That is an absolute mess.
b381l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 01:53 AM   #12
trapper82
1st Team All-SEC
 
trapper82's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 4,359
CockyCash: 500
trapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinacoast View Post
The SEC issued a statement a few weeks that they and the NCAA will look at any loopholes connected with any interpretation of the rules when UT acts on it. You can't penalize a school if they haven't broken a rule, yet. February isn't even here yet, not to mention next fall. What worried some some UT fans was that the NCAA and SEC might make any rule changes immediate as the statement didn't rule anything like that out. Obviously, other schools and/or fans complained to them about UT as the statement was to address the complaints. The question is the interpretation of current rules.
Some of them seem pretty sure there is no problem, glad to hear some others are actually concerned. I think this could set UT back a good bit if they are actually held to the rule.
__________________
You can't spell EXCUSE without the "CU."
trapper82 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 01:56 AM   #13
MWard
1st Team All-SEC
 
MWard's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 4,387
CockyCash: 94340
MWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot materialMWard is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

I don't think that signing all those guys to LOI's before Dec 1 is going to work. The biggest reason would be that if they did that they would've had more than 85 guys on scholarship during this past season, and that would be a huge violation. So is Tenn saying that they count for last season, or they count for this season? It's not like they can say they don't count for either.
__________________
"to be honest with you, if you just graded it out, we won in every phase of the game,” Swinney said. “We lost on the scoreboard."
LOLOLOLOLOL

-Abo Swinney, April 23, 2014

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/po...steve-spurrier
MWard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 11:03 AM   #14
Go Cocks 29
Hall of Famer
 
Go Cocks 29's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: williamston, sc
Posts: 1,322
CockyCash: 348
Go Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPitGo Cocks 29 rules the CockPit
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far here is that there had to be a "perfect storm", or dumpster fire in this case if you will, that enabled a coach to even explore this option. He had to be so far under the 85 limit that it would be worthwhile to take this many kids in one year. This I believe explains as much as anything why no one else is doing it. 25 is a goo number each year for a successful program even accounting for attrition because of the 85 limit.
__________________
Have a great day!
Go Cocks 29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 11:10 AM   #15
trapper82
1st Team All-SEC
 
trapper82's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 4,359
CockyCash: 500
trapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Cocks 29 View Post
One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far here is that there had to be a "perfect storm", or dumpster fire in this case if you will, that enabled a coach to even explore this option. He had to be so far under the 85 limit that it would be worthwhile to take this many kids in one year. This I believe explains as much as anything why no one else is doing it. 25 is a goo number each year for a successful program even accounting for attrition because of the 85 limit.
I didn't stress it, but did mention that any school with enough overall scholarships could do it. It was also mentioned in the first section I quoted.
__________________
You can't spell EXCUSE without the "CU."
trapper82 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 11:21 AM   #16
trapper82
1st Team All-SEC
 
trapper82's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 4,359
CockyCash: 500
trapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamecockjay View Post
I think they will get a pass but the loophole will be closed in short order after this signing period.
Certainly possible, but what motivation would the NCAA and SEC have in letting them slide? No one else is doing it this blatantly, and the rule was obviously designed to keep classes at 25 so this is an obvious attempt to get around it. They also can still say that his reading of the rule is wrong and they never were allowed to have over 25.
__________________
You can't spell EXCUSE without the "CU."
trapper82 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 11:37 AM   #17
duff18
Blue Chip
 
duff18's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 509
CockyCash: 500
duff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his combduff18 is developing his comb
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

I would have to think that UT got some implicit nod of approval from an outside body - the SEC "and/or" NCAA. Their internal compliance and legal department can look at this until they're blue in the face and give Butch the go ahead, but in the real world, whether a bank, corporation, law firm or any other oraganization, it would be a huge risk and bordering on gross negliegence of your job duties to not vet something with an outside regulatory body, where an incorrect interpratation could be devastating to your organization.

Why on earth would UT risk essentially destroying their program for several years over signing an extra 10 kids? It makes no sense to take that risk, unless you know the outcome.

If they do happen to get in trouble over this, then heads will roll. It could have been easily avoided.
duff18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 11:41 AM   #18
PvtWarlick
2nd Team All-SEC
 
PvtWarlick's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Spartanburg
Posts: 2,809
CockyCash: 1261
PvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot materialPvtWarlick is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

My main thing...What if the NCAA tells Tenn you can only sign 25 plus the EE which is about 29 kids..what happens to the other 4-6 kids? They are stuck without a place to commit to cause most are filled up. Think Jabo Lee from Dillon, SC last year. This also ruins relationships at the high school in their pursuit of underclassmen. Tenn is either going to look like a genius or a dumbass come Feburary
__________________
South Carolina History:
Football:
1969 ACC Champions
2010 SEC East Champions

Baseball:
2010, 2011 National Champions
4 Time Runner-Up (1975, 77, 2002, 2012)

Basketball
Southern Champions: 1927, 33, 34, 45
1970, 71 ACC Champions
1997 SEC Champions
2005, 06 NIT Champions
PvtWarlick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 11:48 AM   #19
ReadR00ster
2nd Team All-American
 
ReadR00ster's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 8,679
CockyCash: 510
ReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot materialReadR00ster is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

I think people are really over-thinking this. I don't have a problem with the "loophole" if that is what you want to call it one bit, because if a class has undersigned in a year and these players sign and agreement to get money for tuition in that same year, they absolute should count for that year despite rivals or scout or whoever listing them in the class for the next year. The way the NCAA allows this is absolutely fair and violates no principle that I can think of. In fact it would be UNFAIR not to allow these guys to "count back" to the year they actually signed. As long as the coaches are being upfront with these guys about not being able to take them all or telling them they might have to greyshirt they can absolutely control the damage. That really puts the blame on the recruits, because if you know the situation is iffy, common sense tells you to have a back up plan.

Last edited by ReadR00ster; 12-30-2013 at 11:59 AM.
ReadR00ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 12:03 PM   #20
trapper82
1st Team All-SEC
 
trapper82's Avatar
 
Male

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 4,359
CockyCash: 500
trapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot materialtrapper82 is USC mascot material
Default Re: Why I think Tennessee's class of 33 is against the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadR00ster View Post
I think people are really over-thinking this. I don't have a problem with the "loophole" if that is what you want to call it one bit, because if a class has undersigned in a year and these players sign and agreement to get money for tuition in that same year, they absolute should count for that year despite rivals or scout or whoever listing them in the class for the next year. The way the NCAA allows this is absolutely fair and violates no principle that I can think of. In fact it would be UNFAIR not to allow these guys to "count back" to the year they actually signed.
Per the story that was linked earlier, the only reason they can "count back" is because the timing of institutional aid changed and the NCAA/SEC's rule referenced the former dates. Institutional aid is just one of the three clauses used in their statement, and the dates referenced pointed to that one clause since the NLOI signing period doesn't even start Dec. 1st.

I don't see anything being unfair if the rule was designed to allow a maximum of 25 signees and virtually everyone else but one school is abiding by that.
__________________
You can't spell EXCUSE without the "CU."
trapper82 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Provided by SLB Development