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Old 04-19-2014, 12:11 AM   #1
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Default NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10...t-top-priority

The NBA wants to up the age minimum to 20 years.

Given the success of Lebron, Garnett, Kobe, etc., I think that's completely ridiculous, but I suppose the league is free to do what it wants -- independently. What bothers me is how blatantly the league is working with the NCAA on this issue.

There are basically two sports that make money for colleges: football and men's basketball. It strikes me as mighty "coincidental" that those are the only sports where you can't go pro if you want. Want to be a professional women's tennis player? Knock yourself out. Want to leave school and be a pro track runner? Go right ahead. Want to leave school after two years to be the number 1 NFL draft pick? Whoa now. Can't do that.

These restrictions are largely justified by pointing out that the NCAA doesn't set the age limits -- the leagues do. The NFL says you can't play for three years after high school. The NBA says you can't be drafted til you're 19 (and trying for 20). The schools have nothing to do with it.

Well this process shows how completely full of B.S. that argument is.

"The league's owners hosted NCAA president Mark Emmert to discuss the issue as part of their annual two-day spring meeting this week."

Interesting. Surely someone is there to stand up for the college athlete's right?

"If we're going to be successful in raising the age from 19 to 20, part and parcel in those negotiations goes to the treatment of players on those college campuses and closing the gap between what their scholarships cover and their expenses," Silver said. "We haven't looked specifically at creating a financial incentive for them to stay in college. That's been an option that has been raised over the years, but that's not something that is on the table right now."

The NBA commissioner is discussing what is on the table in terms of player stipends. Not the NCAA president. The commish of the pro league.

I don't see how anyone can read these public statements and actually argue that the age limits imposed by pro leagues are some sort of independent decision that is merely coincidentally beneficial for colleges.

College basketball players will be locked out of (by far) the world's most lucrative basketball league for an additional year, and that decision will be made by the NCAA, the member schools, the NBA owners, and the NBA players. All of whom will personally profit by raising the age limit.

And who is missing? The players, obviously. I can't believe we allow market participants to collude so openly to stifle competition and artificially control the free market.

At least football has a colorable argument that the rule is for the safety of the players. Lebron et al make that a laughingstock for the NBA.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

This helps the NBA much more than it hurts it for obvious reasons. If the players don't want to go to college, they can always go play in Europe. Don't tell me it can't be done because Brandon Jennings did just that.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

you named 3 of the best players in NBA history

there are so many who amounted to nothing because they didnt go to college or left after a year
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:29 AM   #4
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

If the NBA (and NCAA) feel that it is in their best interest to raise the age limit, does it have to consider the rights of 19-years old and under athletes?

I could see this raise in age limit benefiting the NBA generally by making the developmental league more relevant as a farm league while also making star players stay in college longer (and possibly letting the college game develop the players for a year or two longer, and letting the college experience give them a longer social experience from their parents home before they sign big contracts and become businesses for their hanger-ons).

I wonder what the ratio is for stars vs bust for those one and done players and guys that tried to jump to the league from high school?

As a fan, I would like the kids to stay in college longer, but I understand that those athletes are also doing work they could get paid a lot of money for, for very little incentive above a free education and a showcase for their talents.

I do not consider the fairness of the situation inrelation to the quality of the game and the long term health of the sport I like to watch - if the player is good/great enough to play in the NBA, a few more years in college or Europe or NBA DL will not hurt the vast majority of the players and will likely help them develop into more complete players and mature people.
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Originally Posted by GH View Post
If the NBA (and NCAA) feel that it is in their best interest to raise the age limit, does it have to consider the rights of 19-years old and under athletes?

I could see this raise in age limit benefiting the NBA generally by making the developmental league more relevant as a farm league while also making star players stay in college longer (and possibly letting the college game develop the players for a year or two longer, and letting the college experience give them a longer social experience from their parents home before they sign big contracts and become businesses for their hanger-ons).

I wonder what the ratio is for stars vs bust for those one and done players and guys that tried to jump to the league from high school?

As a fan, I would like the kids to stay in college longer, but I understand that those athletes are also doing work they could get paid a lot of money for, for very little incentive above a free education and a showcase for their talents.

I do not consider the fairness of the situation inrelation to the quality of the game and the long term health of the sport I like to watch - if the player is good/great enough to play in the NBA, a few more years in college or Europe or NBA DL will not hurt the vast majority of the players and will likely help them develop into more complete players and mature people.
If the NCAA, the 300+ member schools, the NBA, and the 30 pro teams are allowed to band together to control the market, why does everyone blow a gasket when the players want to band together have a say (Northwestern)?
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Old 04-19-2014, 03:11 AM   #6
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

someone correct me if I am wrong but didn't the NBA draft rule come about as a result of a whole lot of "average" high school players and college players with eligibility left declaring for the draft after being convinced by agents, family members, friends, and other acquaintances that they were great and sure to be drafted only to go undrafted and have their college eligibility ruined.

I remember ESPN doing a story before the rule was ever created about some high school basketball player, who wasn't a real great prospect, who had signed a LOI to some smaller school but was convinced by an "uncle" or someone that he was great and would absolutely be drafted to declare for the draft. He (I wish I could remember who it was) went undrafted (obviously), was ineligible for college basketball, and wasn't even able to get signed by a team overseas anywhere. He basically went from at the very least getting a free college education (assuming he stayed out of trouble and in school) to no contract, no education (and no money to pay for an education outside of a scholarship), no basketball, and basically no future.

You talk about Lebron, Kobe, and KG, but for every one of them there are probably at least 2 or 3 players who had their careers negatively impacted by not going to college for at least a year. Expand it to players who declared after their freshman years and the gap between the ones that struggled and the ones that achieved greatness grows even more.

and by the way KG averaged less than 11 PPG in almost 30 MPG his rookie year, Kobe less than 8 PPG and 16 MPG...of the 42 players drafted out of high school into the NBA as many (2) never played an NBA game as were named Rookie of the Year. Only 8 have ever made an all-star team.

Lastly you can't talk about the NBA and NFL in the same conversation. Physically speaking there are a few high school basketball players who can go into the NBA and compete immediately...in the NFL no one can. Clowney is probably the most physically gifted HS football player I have ever seen and would have done horribly in the NFL straight out of high school.
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Originally Posted by DJCatfish View Post
If the NCAA, the 300+ member schools, the NBA, and the 30 pro teams are allowed to band together to control the market, why does everyone blow a gasket when the players want to band together have a say (Northwestern)?
1) You are now introducing a different arguable part of the institution/athlete issue. Yes, they are connected. Opinion of one topic does not automatically assume the opinion of the other topic. What I mean is I personally believe that athletes should try to get paid for being direct revenue generators (whether by universities or by simply being allowed to profit from their name and likeness). I also believe that the NBA, NFL and their college equivalents are fun to watch when the talent to compete is there.

2) When you say everyone blows a gasket, can you provide examples? I have read and heard many people supporting the decision.
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:02 AM   #8
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

Both the college and pro game are negatively impacted because of the current rule. Personally I think it should be like baseball. Straight out of high school or 3 years in college. Football should be the same way. Don't agree with collectively bargained age discrimination. From 1964-1999 there were 12 high schoolers drafted but from 2000-2005 there were 30. It had gotten out of hand. 17 in the last two years it was Lebrons fault. They all saw the attention he got but for some reason didn't look at the fact that he was obviously going to be one of the best ever. AAU and basketball academy prep school adverse side effect everybody thinks they are the greatest
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJCatfish View Post
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10...t-top-priority

The NBA wants to up the age minimum to 20 years.

Given the success of Lebron, Garnett, Kobe, etc., I think that's completely ridiculous, but I suppose the league is free to do what it wants -- independently. What bothers me is how blatantly the league is working with the NCAA on this issue.

There are basically two sports that make money for colleges: football and men's basketball. It strikes me as mighty "coincidental" that those are the only sports where you can't go pro if you want. Want to be a professional women's tennis player? Knock yourself out. Want to leave school and be a pro track runner? Go right ahead. Want to leave school after two years to be the number 1 NFL draft pick? Whoa now. Can't do that.

These restrictions are largely justified by pointing out that the NCAA doesn't set the age limits -- the leagues do. The NFL says you can't play for three years after high school. The NBA says you can't be drafted til you're 19 (and trying for 20). The schools have nothing to do with it.

Well this process shows how completely full of B.S. that argument is.

"The league's owners hosted NCAA president Mark Emmert to discuss the issue as part of their annual two-day spring meeting this week."

Interesting. Surely someone is there to stand up for the college athlete's right?

"If we're going to be successful in raising the age from 19 to 20, part and parcel in those negotiations goes to the treatment of players on those college campuses and closing the gap between what their scholarships cover and their expenses," Silver said. "We haven't looked specifically at creating a financial incentive for them to stay in college. That's been an option that has been raised over the years, but that's not something that is on the table right now."

The NBA commissioner is discussing what is on the table in terms of player stipends. Not the NCAA president. The commish of the pro league.

I don't see how anyone can read these public statements and actually argue that the age limits imposed by pro leagues are some sort of independent decision that is merely coincidentally beneficial for colleges.

College basketball players will be locked out of (by far) the world's most lucrative basketball league for an additional year, and that decision will be made by the NCAA, the member schools, the NBA owners, and the NBA players. All of whom will personally profit by raising the age limit.

And who is missing? The players, obviously. I can't believe we allow market participants to collude so openly to stifle competition and artificially control the free market.

At least football has a colorable argument that the rule is for the safety of the players. Lebron et al make that a laughingstock for the NBA.
Excellent news. Wish this had been done years ago.
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Old 04-19-2014, 09:33 AM   #10
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Originally Posted by ccured View Post
Both the college and pro game are negatively impacted because of the current rule. Personally I think it should be like baseball. Straight out of high school or 3 years in college. Football should be the same way. Don't agree with collectively bargained age discrimination. From 1964-1999 there were 12 high schoolers drafted but from 2000-2005 there were 30. It had gotten out of hand. 17 in the last two years it was Lebrons fault. They all saw the attention he got but for some reason didn't look at the fact that he was obviously going to be one of the best ever. AAU and basketball academy prep school adverse side effect everybody thinks they are the greatest
Football players going straight from high school to the NFL wouldn't stand a chance.
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Old 04-19-2014, 10:07 AM   #11
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Football players going straight from high school to the NFL wouldn't stand a chance.
Agreed but someone like Clowney should have the right to be drafted and be paid to progress at an assigned facility. You are talking maybe 1 player every 5 to 7 years and that would be probably a 4th round pick. The players potential would have to be obvious to invest in that player.
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Old 04-19-2014, 10:38 AM   #12
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

The NBA has been negatively impacted by all these one and done players. 90% of them are not ready for the NBA and need to physically develop more and home their skills more. I am definitely in favor of a rule being put in place that would make guys be three years out of high school before going pro. It would help both the NCAA and the NBA in terms of player development and having more equal talent throughout the league.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:09 AM   #13
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

The NBA and NFL are the villains here not the NCAA, if they pro leagues took the age limit off then the whole college players should be paid mentality would die as they have a choice to go to college or go pro.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Agreed but someone like Clowney should have the right to be drafted and be paid to progress at an assigned facility. You are talking maybe 1 player every 5 to 7 years and that would be probably a 4th round pick. The players potential would have to be obvious to invest in that player.
Why do players have a right to anything before they are hired? The NFL should have the right to set qualifications for its workforce. I can't just roll into any industry and say because I can do the job I have a right to be hired. I can teach, but the state says to teach I must do or have attained x, y and z. Is that violating my rights? The NFL is amazingly successful because it leaves you wanting more with the shortest regular season and has a perfect feeder system that creates interest and familiarity in college football. The NFL draft gets more viewers than the world series in many years. We know the players, we have watched them for years. It equals interest and profit for the NFL.

And I think it is just fine the way it is. The NBA is figuring it out finally.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Why do players have a right to anything before they are hired? The NFL should have the right to set qualifications for its workforce. I can't just roll into any industry and say because I can do the job I have a right to be hired. I can teach, but the state says to teach I must do or have attained x, y and z. Is that violating my rights? The NFL is amazingly successful because it leaves you wanting more with the shortest regular season and has a perfect feeder system that creates interest and familiarity in college football. The NFL draft gets more viewers than the world series in many years. We know the players, we have watched them for years. It equals interest and profit for the NFL.

And I think it is just fine the way it is. The NBA is figuring it out finally.
My issue is not the qualification issue it is the blatant age discrimination. I thought the nfl said 3 years removed from high school and 20 years old but I was wrong. So I withdraw my objections but I still disagree with the NBA rule which is one year out of high school and 19 years of age. If there was no age attached I wouldn't have an issue. Why should a kid that theoretically graduated at 17 when skipping 1 grade have to wait 3 years to be draft eligible? Why should a kid that graduated high school at 19 because he was held back have to wait a year?
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:23 PM   #16
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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My issue is not the qualification issue it is the blatant age discrimination. I thought the nfl said 3 years removed from high school and 20 years old but I was wrong. So I withdraw my objections but I still disagree with the NBA rule which is one year out of high school and 19 years of age. If there was no age attached I wouldn't have an issue. Why should a kid that theoretically graduated at 17 when skipping 1 grade have to wait 3 years to be draft eligible? Why should a kid that graduated high school at 19 because he was held back have to wait a year?
Because for every LeBron there are 20 Kwame Browns. But past that point, the NBA wants to have interest in their draft. Only way to do that consistently is for the public to be familiar with the draftees. And it weeds out guys who just aren't cut out for a more rigorous schedule where they are held to a standard. Win win for the NBA.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

NBA can make the rules for their league anyway they want. If the player's union is on board as well, than sounds good to me.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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My issue is not the qualification issue it is the blatant age discrimination. I thought the nfl said 3 years removed from high school and 20 years old but I was wrong. So I withdraw my objections but I still disagree with the NBA rule which is one year out of high school and 19 years of age. If there was no age attached I wouldn't have an issue. Why should a kid that theoretically graduated at 17 when skipping 1 grade have to wait 3 years to be draft eligible? Why should a kid that graduated high school at 19 because he was held back have to wait a year?
Isn't age discrimination allowed? I thought it was. You can't get a license until you are 16... You can't buy tobacco or vote until you are 18... You can't drink alcohol until you are 21...
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Originally Posted by ccured View Post
My issue is not the qualification issue it is the blatant age discrimination. I thought the nfl said 3 years removed from high school and 20 years old but I was wrong. So I withdraw my objections but I still disagree with the NBA rule which is one year out of high school and 19 years of age. If there was no age attached I wouldn't have an issue. Why should a kid that theoretically graduated at 17 when skipping 1 grade have to wait 3 years to be draft eligible? Why should a kid that graduated high school at 19 because he was held back have to wait a year?
To my understanding it is an either-or scenario. So you go to college for a year or if you are 19 when you leave high school, you can enter the draft. It is not that you have to be above 19 no matter when you graduated HS.

I think all sports should go to the baseball rule, that way it would shut up the athletes are being mistreated crowd. It would also help both the pro and college game. The other big change is that the universities need to actually educate these athletes and get them degrees while also educating them on how to be a pro. Student athletes should be given courses on how to handle their finances and manage their marketability. Too many universities are putting athletes in bogus majors and not actually helping the athletes better themselves. Schools need to reconstitute the idea of being a student athlete into college athletics.
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: NBA Wants to Up Age Limit

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Originally Posted by ReadR00ster View Post
Isn't age discrimination allowed? I thought it was. You can't get a license until you are 16... You can't buy tobacco or vote until you are 18... You can't drink alcohol until you are 21...
come on man. Employee age discrimination was the obvious case I was talking about.
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