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Old 05-19-2014, 11:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Originally Posted by Lalli25 View Post
Roughing the snapper exist as a protection for snappers, just like a roughing the passer exist to protect QBs; it isn't strange. Prior to the roughing the snapper rule, people were lining up like 4 guys up on the snapper and running over him while his head was still down from snapping. It is a very vulnerable position.
Those fouls listed are automatic first downs
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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I think it's weird that during a FG a holder can be on a knee, catch the snap and then get up and throw a pass. Seems like they would be ruled down. I know it's the rule but it's just kinda weird.
can't do that in HS
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:02 AM   #23
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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How about rules that don't exist? If we visit that topic, then penalties not being reviewable gets my vote. I mean penalties should be able to be overturned and be able to be called when reviewing a play. In other words, if a penalty is called (let's say illegal man downfield) and the play is reviewed and shows the player(s) in question were within the allowable distance, then it should be overturned. Likewise, if the penalty wasn't called originally and the review shows the player(s) too far downfield, then the officials should be able to call it.

I'm not saying penalties should be the reasons for the reviews (unless they are potentially game-changing call/non-calls, like pass interference), but if the play is being reviewed anyway, then review everything about it.
penalties aren't reviewable...fouls are
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:07 AM   #24
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Those fouls listed are automatic first downs
Ok? Do you think they shouldn't be?
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:10 AM   #25
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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There is a reason there are 7 of them. In HS, only 5...and most of those guys that are refs, umpires, or back judges aren't in shape to begin with. The HL and the LJ seem to be in shape more since they are streaking with the receivers, especially in 4 man mechanics. Hurry up offenses kill me sometimes.
I am not talking about the Oregon hurry up all game, but I just think it is dumb that games can be lost due to refs not letting the offense run a play in the final seconds. Hell look at what they did to Wisconsin last year on just kneeling the ball down. That happens more than people realize on final minute drives.
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Can someone also explain the infield fly rule
a pop-up on the infield with less than 2 outs and a runner on first is an automatic out... it was so that the infielder couldnt intentionally drop the ball and then pick it up to induce a double play
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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can't do that in HS
Not true. In HS the holder can start the play with his knee down and then run a fake.
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:13 AM   #28
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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a pop-up on the infield with less than 2 outs and a runner on first is an automatic out... it was so that the infielder couldnt intentionally drop the ball and then pick it up to induce a double play
It is actually takes a runner on first and second with less than 2 outs. The idea is that by dropping a pop with 2 on, you can get a double play since both runners won't move. Whereas with only one runner on, they figure the hitter will get to first prior to the fielder being able to drop it, pick it up, throw to second and then throw to first.
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:21 AM   #29
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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It is actually takes a runner on first and second with less than 2 outs. The idea is that by dropping a pop with 2 on, you can get a double play since both runners won't move. Whereas with only one runner on, they figure the hitter will get to first prior to the fielder being able to drop it, pick it up, throw to second and then throw to first.
ahh yes your right
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:31 AM   #30
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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While I understand your argument, trust me you don't want that. Here is why I say that. High School football got rid of the automatic first down on PI and personal fouls, which sounded good. However, if you are in a first and goal situation and they get a PI or PF, it is only a half the distance to the goal and replay the down foul. So basically they allowed defenses to start mugging WR when inside the red zone and daring the ref to call it repeatedly.

If you screw up and get an automatic first down penalty that is your fault, not the refs. Whose to say that PI wouldn't have stopped a play that would have been a first down.
I actually posted something similar quite a while back on this topic. I despise the fact that one team can benefit more from a penalty than the other depending on where the ball is spotted. I'm talking about a situation where the ball is spotted on the 2-yard line with the offense moving away from that endzone. In this situation, if the offense is called for a false start, then they lose one yard, but if on the next attempt to run a play the defense is called for offside, then the offense actually gains four yards, even though the consecutive penalties would normally be for identical yardage. The reverse scenario is also true.

For something like this, I say make the penalties hurt more. If an offense is backed up far enough where the full penalty yardage cannot be enforced once it is called, award the defense with a safety. If the offense is driving and the defense gets called for a penalty that can't be fully enforced, give the offense the two points.

In the scenario you mentioned how it's the player's fault for getting an automatic first down called against him, you're using only one example of a penalty that results in the first down. What about a late hit (that is also VERY questionable)? If an offense has 3rd and 57 and the defense gets called for the questionable late hit (let's say the running back's shoe BARELY touches the sideline and then a defender pushes him out further), then why should the offense get a free first down?
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:38 AM   #31
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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In HS football, there is no automatic first down for PI. Depending on the severity of the foul, I belivee it is warranted in some cases.
In some cases, I agree it is warranted, but more often, I don't.


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PF fouls are usually safety fouls and therefore meant to help reduce unnecessary injuries.
What if the offense is called for a personal foul? Shouldn't the defense get rewarded by getting the ball? That's sort of what happens when the defense is called for it. Remember when Quarles was called for the facemask against Nebraska while they were punting? They were giving up the ball but got it back because of the penalty. Why not give the ball to the defense when the offense is guilty of a personal foul?

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That is why you coach them not to do anything stupid
So one stupid play by the defense should be penalized more harshly than all the penalties the offense committed?
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:53 AM   #32
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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In some cases, I agree it is warranted, but more often, I don't.




What if the offense is called for a personal foul? Shouldn't the defense get rewarded by getting the ball? That's sort of what happens when the defense is called for it. Remember when Quarles was called for the facemask against Nebraska while they were punting? They were giving up the ball but got it back because of the penalty. Why not give the ball to the defense when the offense is guilty of a personal foul?



So one stupid play by the defense should be penalized more harshly than all the penalties the offense committed?
The offense can lose a TD on numerous penalties, such as holding, illegal formation, block in the back, illegal man down field. You are only looking at it from one side. Rules can cause crazy outcomes, that doesn't mean they are bad rules. Getting a 3rd and +20 never came in to the minds of those who created the rule.
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:57 AM   #33
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I will never get over this blown call.
Neither will Clowney....
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:15 PM   #34
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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Not true. In HS the holder can start the play with his knee down and then run a fake.
ART. 2 . . . The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

a. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position catches or recovers the snap while his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, hand, kick or pass; or

2. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position rises and catches or recovers an errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground and places the ball for a kick or again rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

NOTE: The ball becomes dead if the place-kick holder muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground with other than hand or foot while in possession of the ball.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:27 PM   #35
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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The offense can lose a TD on numerous penalties, such as holding, illegal formation, block in the back, illegal man down field. You are only looking at it from one side. Rules can cause crazy outcomes, that doesn't mean they are bad rules. Getting a 3rd and +20 never came in to the minds of those who created the rule.
I agree. So, doesn't that mean the rules need to be updated?

I know the offense can have plays called back, but giving them a free first down can't be replicated for the defense. Obviously, I don't think the offense should have to lose the ball if it commits a personal foul, but I also don't think they should be overly rewarded if the defense is called for the same thing. The only way I can see it being equal is if the offense also has loss of down for a play where a personal foul is called. And if the foul occurs after the play, take away the next down.

I guess my bigger issue is that penalties seem to be geared in favor of the offense. Like this: if a defender is called for PI 50 yards downfield, then the ball is spotted there for the offense. If the receiver is called for the same thing at the same spot, the offense only loses 15 yards. I think the same yardage should be marked off for both teams.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:27 PM   #36
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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ART. 2 . . . The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

a. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position catches or recovers the snap while his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, hand, kick or pass; or

2. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position rises and catches or recovers an errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground and places the ball for a kick or again rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

NOTE: The ball becomes dead if the place-kick holder muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground with other than hand or foot while in possession of the ball.
None of this says, like the post you had quoted to start this, that the holder can not catch the snap on a knee, fake the kick and then get up and run a FG fake. That is legal in HS football.

All the rules you listed are about being able to catch a bad snap and get back on your knee. As long as you don't leave your vicinity, you can place your knee on the ground for holding. It basically negates someone crawling to get the ball or back to their spot for a kick. Either way, starting a play on a knee and catching the ball, while your knee is still down, is acceptable on a FG fake.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:28 PM   #37
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Default Re: Strange Rules and Penalties

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What if the offense is called for a personal foul? Shouldn't the defense get rewarded by getting the ball?
NO! That's not the point of a penalty. You don't award someone a ball for clipping. That's ludicrous.

Quote:
That's sort of what happens when the defense is called for it. Remember when Quarles was called for the facemask against Nebraska while they were punting? They were giving up the ball but got it back because of the penalty. Why not give the ball to the defense when the offense is guilty of a personal foul?
It depends on the all-but-one rule. USC did was not in possession of the ball yet.


Quote:
So one stupid play by the defense should be penalized more harshly than all the penalties the offense committed?
Yep
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:29 PM   #38
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None of this says, like the post you had quoted to start this, that the holder can not catch the snap on a knee, fake the kick and then get up and run a FG fake. That is legal in HS football.

All the rules you listed are about being able to catch a bad snap and get back on your knee. As long as you don't leave your vicinity, you can place your knee on the ground for holding. It basically negates someone crawling to get the ball or back to their spot for a kick. Either way, starting a play on a knee and catching the ball, while your knee is still down, is acceptable on a FG fake.
I know that. Who said I was posting it to prove you wrong? That was a poor conclusion you jumped to
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:34 PM   #39
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I agree. So, doesn't that mean the rules need to be updated?
No I don't agree they should be updated for those circumstances. Also PI is only a spot foul in the NFL, so at all levels it is equal 15 yards for each team. I think automatic first downs are reasonable penalties for the rules they violate. The only thing I'd say should be changed is that dead ball penalty on the offense, after getting a first down, should result in a 1st and 25, not 15 yards back and a 1st and 10. However, I'd also want to see them make after a 4th down dead ball personal foul on the defense result in a first down for the other offense or at least make the other team take the ball 1st and 25.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:42 PM   #40
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No I don't agree they should be updated for those circumstances. Also PI is only a spot foul in the NFL, so at all levels it is equal 15 yards for each team. I think automatic first downs are reasonable penalties for the rules they violate. The only thing I'd say should be changed is that dead ball penalty on the offense, after getting a first down, should result in a 1st and 25, not 15 yards back and a 1st and 10. However, I'd also want to see them make after a 4th down dead ball personal foul on the defense result in a first down for the other offense or at least make the other team take the ball 1st and 25.
Disagree. If the line to gain was made and THEN the foul happened, then the team should not be penalized after the fact. That's kind of the point behind dead ball and I know you know that cause you seem like one of the coaches that actually knows the rules...or at least the one about the knee being down. ;-)
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